Mac 11/9 Upper Options?

[PDXsparky]

Richard Lage can do it. That man can do anything.

All the while providing superior customer service. Truly a rarity.

 

[skoda]

If the Tenko adapter comes to market, that should allow use of a Shrike/Aeries/Fightlite belt fed upper. So in my opinion 5.56 is covered. No need to pay $18k for a M249 upper. What I would like to see is an upper based on the PKM. Although the parts kits are drying up the weapon is still in use and production so parts should be available. Of course politics makes getting Russian parts difficult.

Belt fed uppers is a very small niche market and I don't think we will see any come to market. Please prove me wrong, but the economics don't make sense. As Scott pointed out a belt fed upper based on an available parts kit would be in the $16k to $18k range. Yes that is cheaper than a transferable M60 but it is still a very expensive toy. Selling enough units to cover R&D costs would be difficult. There are several threads on this site discussing the cost of bringing a rifle upper or rifle upper adapter to market. I'm sure a belt fed upper based on a military light or medium machine gun would get even more scrutiny from BATFE.

I'm not trying to be negative, and I hope belt fed uppers come to market. I would buy one and possibly one of each one that came to market, but I don't think they would sell enough of them to make it financially viable.

I agree that right now the Tenko is the only realistic hope for a belt fed MAC via the Shrike.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

I wonder if a Super Safety will work with a Fightlite/Shrike upper?

Yes! 😀

 

[Gaujo]

What if we offered it as a caliber option, ready to go?

I would suggest people still love the caliber, but with the price higher than 5.56 these days I am skeptical of how many would buy it without cheap Russian ammo. 2 years ago, it's a slam dunk.

There is an ATF rule that "once a mg always a mg" meaning using parts kits parts is off the table. That doesn't preclude designing a new gun with an existing feed tray mechanism or whatever as long as it's incorporated into a new design with newly made parts.

 

[KickStand]

I would suggest people still love the caliber, but with the price higher than 5.56 these days I am skeptical of how many would buy it without cheap Russian ammo. 2 years ago, it's a slam dunk.

I agree with 100%. A few years ago, I’d love to have it. Today, not so much.
Cheap steel case is going for around BRASS 223 prices. Maybe, just maybe PSA will start to bring the prices down on their steel ammo cased ammo but it’s still way to expensive for me.

I’m aware that some folks have tons of steel cased laying around but that’s the minority.

 

[A&S Conversions]

There is an ATF rule that "once a mg always a mg" meaning using parts kits parts is off the table. That doesn't preclude designing a new gun with an existing feed tray mechanism or whatever as long as it's incorporated into a new design with newly made parts.

It is my understanding that the “once a machine gun…” has to do with the regulated part (the firearm frame or receiver). Parts is parts, so unless you are trying to modify the original frame or receiver, there is no issue using any unregulated part.

Many here have seen the pictures of the M249 and RPD uppers for the M11/NINE. My understanding is that the original demilitarized receiver was welded back together, then modified into an “upper”. “Once a machine gun…” would apply IMHO. You might get it to pass if the demilitarized pieces of the frame or receiver where modified before welding the receiver itself back together. I would think that it would be much easier to start with a 80% and modifying that into an upper before any work towards completing it were done.

Belt fed guns are expensive to build and feed. I have posted our $200 minute video on YT in the AR Talk forum a couple of times. Today that would be a $250 minute as green tip is around $500 per thousand and we shot 500 rounds with one pull through our water cooled upper. YMMV.

Scott

 

[Switchride]

Always wished someone would do a .45 upper for the m11 that used ump mags similar to lage's 31 series upper design. Seems like the m11 has options for most popular calibers but I sold my m10 45 and miss being able to shoot 45 full auto every now and then too.

 

[A&S Conversions]

We have an eventual plan specifically to run Grease Gun or Thompson mags with the Tenko adapter with AR uppers. I am fortunate enough to own both a .45 ACP and 10mm AUTO direct impingement and a radial delayed blow back upper in .45. I am not a big fan of the UMP 45 mags as they only have 25 round capacity.

It is more expensive to run .45 but it knocks down steel so much better and makes a big hole so you can see the holes in a paper target easier. This feature is something we have planned, but will not be available at first. We need to get to market.

Scott
Manager A&S Conversations LLC

 

[SecondAmend]

We have an eventual plan specifically to run Grease Gun or Thompson mags with the Tenko adapter with AR uppers. I am fortunate enough to own both a .45 ACP and 10mm AUTO direct impingement and a radial delayed blow back upper in .45. I am not a big fan of the UMP 45 mags as they only have 25 round capacity.

It is more expensive to run .45 but it knocks down steel so much better and makes a big hole so you can see the holes in a paper target easier. This feature is something we have planned, but will not be available at first. We need to get to market.

Scott
Manager A&S Conversations LLC

For "high capacity" full auto shooting .45 ACP in a standard magwell M16, I use a 40 round, .45 ACP ProMag 1911 pattern feed tower drum coupled with a Blind Squirrel Enterprises (BSE) 1911 mag magwell adapter. Not cheap, no LRBHO, and as is the case with MEAN Arms EndoMags, the ejector is integral with the mag, so caution must be exercised to ensure live rounds are not left in the chamber. But the mag release is the standard one. And I also have a couple 15 round ProMag 1911 .45 ACP mags with BSE adapters mounted on them. I have a .45 ACP 1911 pistol, so the mag use could be shared, but I don't.

And for some other "low capacity" M16, .45 shooting, I also have the Stern Defense magwell adapter that uses Smith & Wesson M & P 45 (10 and 14 round) mags. The Stern Defense adapter has LRBHO and the ejector is in the adapter, and the mag release is at a pretty handy location. I have a Smith & Wesson M & P 45 pistol, so the mag use is shared.

For a third option for some other "low capacity" M16, .45 shooting, I also have an Olympic Arms K45 16 in. bbl. upper plus several of the matching 17 round mags. Since I acquired the BSE and Stern Defense options, I now mostly use this upper and mags on an AR-15 lower as a PCC, not for full auto shooting.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

ETA: If one goes the 1911 mag feed tower ProMag drum plus BSE adapter route, I've found that a 5 in. rubber strap wrench is a handy aid for loading the ProMag drum.

AETA: Also, I do not have the system, but Macon Armory sells an adapter for the standard AR-15/M16 magwell that uses their proprietary 10 and 20 round .45 ACP mags. Their adapter has an integral ejector, and a LRBHO trip.

 

[Switchride]

We have an eventual plan specifically to run Grease Gun or Thompson mags with the Tenko adapter with AR uppers. I am fortunate enough to own both a .45 ACP and 10mm AUTO direct impingement and a radial delayed blow back upper in .45. I am not a big fan of the UMP 45 mags as they only have 25 round capacity.

It is more expensive to run .45 but it knocks down steel so much better and makes a big hole so you can see the holes in a paper target easier. This feature is something we have planned, but will not be available at first. We need to get to market.

Scott
Manager A&S Conversations LLC

Fair, I'd be happy to have anything that would allow us to shoot 45 using the 9mm guns honestly. I just really like the look of Lage's 31 upper so the ump mag seemed like it would fit the aesthetic. Plentiful supply and very reliable unlike a lot of mags/drums we have to source for a lot of the mac setups. Could even do a 10mm upper since the 40s&w ump mags are supposedly pretty easy to convert to 10mm.

Just throwing my pipe dream out there in case you are listening mac tony stark

 

[A&S Conversions]

As far as .40 S&W/10mm AUTO, I know that Grease Gun mag lips can be narrowed for use with 10mm. To me, I would rather have the MP5-40/10 mags. Again 30 round capacity but is double stack, double feed. Certainly, more options is a good thing.

Scott

 

[Garrett]

Maybe I’m the oddball here. But I have conversions to shoot the Uzi in .40, 10mm, .357 Sig, and .45ACP. But I find I shoot the gun 95% in 9mm, 4.5% in .22LR, and the other 1/2% in the other calibers.

As far as .40 S&W/10mm AUTO, I know that Grease Gun mag lips can be narrowed for use with 10mm. To me, I would rather have the MP5-40/10 mags. Again 30 round capacity but is double stack, double feed. Certainly, more options is a good thing.

Scott

And yes, a tweaked grease gun mag will hold 35 of the .40/10mm and they run pretty well

 

[A&S Conversions]

I very much agree that for most owners shooting 9mm will be most popular. Larger calibers or heavier slower bullets tend to impart more recoil energy into the bolts of simple blowback systems. With simple blowback, in those calibers, what is the cyclic rates like? A system like rotary delayed or direct impingement spreads out to recoil pulse over time. Since the AR platform has so many users, there are a lot more options for that system. Of course with more complicated systems, there is a higher price.

Such caliber conversions tend to be more of a novelty. Could some kind of delayed system be adapted to the Uzi? I would think so, but there really isn’t these other options available because of volume of sales. I would think that adapting the Mac style lower to the AR system would be more cost effective than to try to adapt the technology into another firearm system. The Tenko would not be feasible 20 years ago because of the market value of the Mac or M16. I would imagine that CMMG sells many more 9mm rotary delayed uppers than 10mm uppers. But there is that OTS option. It would be a labor of love for a manufacturer to make a rotary delayed upper for the Uzi. YMMV.

Scott

 

[Slowmo]

A Lage Max-31 that took grease gun mags for the M11 and/or M11/9 would be cool. Maybe even for the M10 if it smoothed things out substantially, though the Max-10/45 is already a very nice setup. I shoot 9mm setups more than my M10/45, but there sure is something fun about a .45 SMG to me. That said, I have a .45 conversion for my Uzi and have never even put it in the gun.

 

[Garrett]

I very much agree that for most owners shooting 9mm will be most popular. Larger calibers or heavier slower bullets tend to impart more recoil energy into the bolts of simple blowback systems. With simple blowback, in those calibers, what is the cyclic rates like? A system like rotary delayed or direct impingement spreads out to recoil pulse over time.

Since we're talking about open-bolt guns, don't overlook the value of "advanced primer ignition" in these systems. Even though they are a simple blowback design, the cartridge having to overcome the forward momentum of the bolt tends to also smooth out the recoil impulse quiet a bit.

I know shooting the Uzi in open-bolt is super smooth. Switching to a closed-bolt setup in the same gun with the same ammo results in a very abrupt recoil impulse. It's not unlike shooting a Colt AR15/9mm system.

Having said that, the more powerful cartridges do cycle the gun faster. It probably has something to do with using a recoil spring designed for a 9mm. I suspect a simple spring swap could bring the ROF down, while still giving a nice smooth recoil impulse.

The point of all this being, I bet an open bolt "MAX-31-style" .45 setup on an M11/9 could be pretty smooth, even with no roller-delay or other mechanical smoothing going on.

 

[skoda]

A Lage Max-31 that took grease gun mags for the M11 and/or M11/9 would be cool. Maybe even for the M10 if it smoothed things out substantially, though the Max-10/45 is already a very nice setup. I shoot 9mm setups more than my M10/45, but there sure is something fun about a .45 SMG to me. That said, I have a .45 conversion for my Uzi and have never even put it in the gun.

I really like the idea but how about Thompson stick and drum mags? The stick mags are dual feed and quite easy to load. Drums come in 50 and 100 round versions. There are plenty of surplus mags around but they are both made in reproduction now.

You are very correct about a .45 SMG. I mostly shoot 9mm but there is something very nice about a .45, it somehow hits a sweet spot.

 

[strobro32]

I would love a 45 ACP upper for the M11A1. I'm sure there's a reason no one has done it.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Since we're talking about open-bolt guns, don't overlook the value of "advanced primer ignition" in these systems. Even though they are a simple blowback design, the cartridge having to overcome the forward momentum of the bolt tends to also smooth out the recoil impulse quiet a bit.

I know shooting the Uzi in open-bolt is super smooth. Switching to a closed-bolt setup in the same gun with the same ammo results in a very abrupt recoil impulse. It's not unlike shooting a Colt AR15/9mm system.

Having said that, the more powerful cartridges do cycle the gun faster. It probably has something to do with using a recoil spring designed for a 9mm. I suspect a simple spring swap could bring the ROF down, while still giving a nice smooth recoil impulse.

The point of all this being, I bet an open bolt "MAX-31-style" .45 setup on an M11/9 could be pretty smooth, even with no roller-delay or other mechanical smoothing going on.

You certainly have a point about advanced primer ignition with an open bolt gun. Personally I have found that to slow the ROF, in a simple blowback system, the mass of the bolt needs to be increased, the stroke needs to be increased, and/or the recoil spring needs to be as small of a spring rate to slow the bolt from slamming into the back of the receiver while being just strong enough to strip a round and chambering it.

So from my experience with the blowback system, if the stroke length can’t be increased, a more powerful or heavier cartridge that increases the energy of the cartridge imparted to the bolt is used, some combination of stronger recoil spring or increased mass must be used to deal with the increased energy imparted to the bolt.

It seems to me that an increased strength of the recoil spring can absorb the increased energy imparted to the bolt, but then releases that energy by driving the bolt even faster into battery, increasing the cyclic rate. Increasing the mass of the bolt could also absorb more recoil energy, but increasing the mass of the bolt that can’t be enlarged, due to the limitations of the size of the firearm tends to need exotic materials such as tungsten alloys to increase bolt mass. There was quite a bit of tuning that went into the tungsten bolt for the M11 series. I would also think that Richard spent a fair amount of time tuning the Max-31.

I very much agree that a Max-31 style upper would be the way to go for the increased mass of .45 ACP, 10mm or other more sizable rounds for the M11 series. It would be interesting to know why that was never done.

Scott

 

[Gaujo]

Maybe I’m the oddball here. But I have conversions to shoot the Uzi in .40, 10mm, .357 Sig, and .45ACP. But I find I shoot the gun 95% in 9mm, 4.5% in .22LR, and the other 1/2% in the other calibers.


And yes, a tweaked grease gun mag will hold 35 of the .40/10mm and they run pretty well

I have some gg mags I inherited tweaked to run 9mm steyer so I think they can run about anything.