New MAX-11/15 Videos

[A&S Conversions]

I'm failing to see what makes the Max11 MK2 $800 and this upper $2-3k...

If you don't see the difference, I doubt if another member can explain that difference to you. By the same token, no one is requiring you to buy one. If you think if the upper is over $800, you don't want one, that is your choice. None of this is patented. If you can build one for $800, I'll send you $1,600 plus shipping costs and you can build me two. I am totally serious. I'll send the money to anyone that can prove to me that they will do it. There is also a very limited market. I've heard a few different #s, but the buyers for this product are only M11/9 RR owners. And what percentage of those owners will actually buy this product? 10%? How many MAX 11 pistol caliber uppers have been sold? Only Richard knows, but I bet it is not more than 10% of the total # of M11/9s in the registry.

All that time building, testing, submitting, refining, building updated versions, and then resubmitting is all time Richard could be spending making $900 uppers. Where does that cost go? To me this is worth at least $3,000. I know I can't build one for myself for $3,000. Between the design work, the programing, machine time and tooling, unless you have access to the machines and programming, I bet it would be $6,000-$10,000 to pay someone to do it.

Name for me a rifle caliber transferable machinegun besides a $20,000 M16 or a $30,000 HK sear that has also won national level submachinegun matches? I can't think of one. The only possibility I could think of was an AUG in 9mm. I don't know as anyone has won a match with one. Between the cost of the AUG sear, the base gun and the incredibly rare 9mm conversion and mags, that would still be a $20,000 gun.

Maybe "mak91" would share with us how many hours he spent getting proficient enough and how much his machines cost to make that first prototype. If it was that cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it. There are a few companies making OEM style parts. But how many companies, besides Lage is bringing new designs for MAC style RR to market? There is a huge lay out of time and resources to bring this product to market. I personally think there should be profit in making it. I'm sure Richard will let us know when he is actually ready to go to market what the price will be. I personally think his uppers are priced too low to start. Again, what would it cost me to make a slow fire upper? I'm sure a lot more than $800. That is probably why he has no competition. YMMV.

Scott

 

[JJ1234567]

If you don't see the difference, I doubt if another member can explain that difference to you. By the same token, no one is requiring you to buy one. If you think if the upper is over $800, you don't want one, that is your choice. None of this is patented. If you can build one for $800, I'll send you $1,600 plus shipping costs and you can build me two. I am totally serious. I'll send the money to anyone that can prove to me that they will do it. There is also a very limited market. I've heard a few different #s, but the buyers for this product are only M11/9 RR owners. And what percentage of those owners will actually buy this product? 10%? How many MAX 11 pistol caliber uppers have been sold? Only Richard knows, but I bet it is not more than 10% of the total # of M11/9s in the registry.

All that time building, testing, submitting, refining, building updated versions, and then resubmitting is all time Richard could be spending making $900 uppers. Where does that cost go? To me this is worth at least $3,000. I know I can't build one for myself for $3,000. Between the design work, the programing, machine time and tooling, unless you have access to the machines and programming, I bet it would be $6,000-$10,000 to pay someone to do it.

Name for me a rifle caliber transferable machinegun besides a $20,000 M16 or a $30,000 HK sear that has also won national level submachinegun matches? I can't think of one. The only possibility I could think of was an AUG in 9mm. I don't know as anyone has won a match with one. Between the cost of the AUG sear, the base gun and the incredibly rare 9mm conversion and mags, that would still be a $20,000 gun.

Maybe "mak91" would share with us how many hours he spent getting proficient enough and how much his machines cost to make that first prototype. If it was that cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it. There are a few companies making OEM style parts. But how many companies, besides Lage is bringing new designs for MAC style RR to market? There is a huge lay out of time and resources to bring this product to market. I personally think there should be profit in making it. I'm sure Richard will let us know when he is actually ready to go to market what the price will be. I personally think his uppers are priced too low to start. Again, what would it cost me to make a slow fire upper? I'm sure a lot more than $800. That is probably why he has no competition. YMMV.

Scott

This - all of this. I will pay whatever Richard asks, because he has skills I lack.

 

[gotgraham]

@brother_evil - Completely agree. It took me several months to fabricate my 7.62x39 upper for the M11/9. There was a lot of pushback for the AA pricing on the upper - but given the time and material cost involved it was well in line. My one-off was not far off from their cost for materials alone. I didn't factor in my own time - which would have added even more. In short, I'll pay whatever for it as it's worth it - I'm #6 on the list

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

If you don't see the difference, I doubt if another member can explain that difference to you. By the same token, no one is requiring you to buy one. If you think if the upper is over $800, you don't want one, that is your choice. None of this is patented. If you can build one for $800, I'll send you $1,600 plus shipping costs and you can build me two. I am totally serious. I'll send the money to anyone that can prove to me that they will do it. There is also a very limited market. I've heard a few different #s, but the buyers for this product are only M11/9 RR owners. And what percentage of those owners will actually buy this product? 10%? How many MAX 11 pistol caliber uppers have been sold? Only Richard knows, but I bet it is not more than 10% of the total # of M11/9s in the registry.

All that time building, testing, submitting, refining, building updated versions, and then resubmitting is all time Richard could be spending making $900 uppers. Where does that cost go? To me this is worth at least $3,000. I know I can't build one for myself for $3,000. Between the design work, the programing, machine time and tooling, unless you have access to the machines and programming, I bet it would be $6,000-$10,000 to pay someone to do it.

Name for me a rifle caliber transferable machinegun besides a $20,000 M16 or a $30,000 HK sear that has also won national level submachinegun matches? I can't think of one. The only possibility I could think of was an AUG in 9mm. I don't know as anyone has won a match with one. Between the cost of the AUG sear, the base gun and the incredibly rare 9mm conversion and mags, that would still be a $20,000 gun.

Maybe "mak91" would share with us how many hours he spent getting proficient enough and how much his machines cost to make that first prototype. If it was that cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it. There are a few companies making OEM style parts. But how many companies, besides Lage is bringing new designs for MAC style RR to market? There is a huge lay out of time and resources to bring this product to market. I personally think there should be profit in making it. I'm sure Richard will let us know when he is actually ready to go to market what the price will be. I personally think his uppers are priced too low to start. Again, what would it cost me to make a slow fire upper? I'm sure a lot more than $800. That is probably why he has no competition. YMMV.

Scott

Thanks. Very well explained.

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

So. Stupid question number two - Is there any benefit to the IRM other than not having to drill the hole in your lower? If that was answered in the last mega thread, just smack me and send me over there.

Side note: Richard, I broke my stuff again. Ill be sending an email asking for some advice Sunday evening when I can include photos.

The IRM will not have as many options for people that like to tinker and refine operation. The IRM has one bolt mass and one recoil spring. The standard “hole” upper has a huge variety of springs and buffers to choose from.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

will there be different IRM options? spring sizes? in case someone wanted to make a 7.62x39 upper....would you sell a different IRM setup for larger calibers?

 

[m11stuff@hotmail.com]

There is a physical constraint on the diameter and maximum length of the spring for the IRM but I am confident it will work with 7.62x39.

 

[bac0nfat]

I'm not saying it's not worth 3K, the market will decide what it's worth. But I have to decide whats in my budget, and with a family of 5 that's gonna be a stretch.

 

[Gaujo]

I guess IRM is out of the picture for that way down the road 11a1 version. It's going to all happen so fast the trigger pack crowd won't know what hit em.

I never thought I'd see the day, but I recently saw a registered Uzi bolt go for 8k, which is what 11/9s are listing at now. Now thats a bolt vs a gun with accessories of course, but I think it's just the beginning.

 

[speeddemon02]

No hole, works with a piston conversion kit, and will cycle loud and suppressed thats all I need. Well, additional caliber uppers like 7.62/5.45x39 would be great too, but one thing at a time.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I'm not saying it's not worth 3K, the market will decide what it's worth. But I have to decide whats in my budget, and with a family of 5 that's gonna be a stretch.

That certainly is very valid. Transferable machineguns are very expensive toys. Nobody "needs" a machinegun. Just like nobody "needs" a Harley, a sports car, or power boat. This product is not for every owner. Rifle caliber ammo is more expensive. I'm sure Richard would love to sell the MAX 11/15 for $800 and make $800 profit to cover profit and development costs. But that isn't realistic. Maybe you can find a used one in a couple of years. It would be great if transferable RRs were hundreds of dollars instead of thousands or tens of thousands. But without a drastic change in the law there will be no change.

Scott

 

[mak91]

Maybe "mak91" would share with us how many hours he spent getting proficient enough and how much his machines cost to make that first prototype. If it was that cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it. There are a few companies making OEM style parts. But how many companies, besides Lage is bringing new designs for MAC style RR to market? There is a huge lay out of time and resources to bring this product to market. I personally think there should be profit in making it. I'm sure Richard will let us know when he is actually ready to go to market what the price will be. I personally think his uppers are priced too low to start. Again, what would it cost me to make a slow fire upper? I'm sure a lot more than $800. That is probably why he has no competition. YMMV.

Scott

First let me state this. The only thing I get if the max11/15 gets to market is a couple of uppers. If Richard sells one or a thousand it doesn't benefit me in any way, shape or form. I gave the prototype to Richard because I felt he offered the best chance of bringing a quality rifle caliber upper to market in the least amount of time and had the infrastructure in place to offer the best customer support and service.

I have no machining background or training. I have a full time desk job as a software developer that at times takes up more of my time then I wish. I spent about 3 years playing with a mill, learning gcode and 3d modeling as a hobbie before I started on the prototype. The cost of the mill itself is nothing compared to the cost of the vices, end mills, holding tools, stepper motors, drivers, computer, etc. If I had to guess just related to my little mill setup I have over $5 grand invested, most likely more. Not much was specifically purchased to make the prototype, I've always been mechanically inclined and like to tinker, from hot rods to gun stuff so tools accumulated over time.

M11 SABRE's were selling for $2500 when I looked at them on the AA website. I refused to pay that much for a SABRE for my m11 which is one of the reasons I started the prototype. When I looked at the SABRE for what it was, a rifle caliber conversion upper for a pistol caliber sub machine gun I could understand the price point but the design, with all its custom made parts, I could see the limitations and flaws they introduced. Had the SABRE design been light weight, used more standard parts so it was easily re configured / maintained and had a standup company behind it things would have been different I would have paid the price for the SABRE and the prototype would never have been developed.

Everyone has their own view of value, worth and disposable income, that will determine who buys and who doesn't. I have ar15 / ar10 uppers with more than $1500 invested in them. Bottom line is the dollar isn't worth much today and things cost money. Some people get the costs and risks involved in the development of a new product combined with the everyday long term costs of simply keeping the business's doors open, some do not.

Like you said Scott how many companies are even offering things like this. Anyone that thinks that the price of the max11/15 is to high when it is released is entitled to that opinion and can always make their own. That is what I did

 

[rybread]

Even if you buy a dedicated lower and upper it’s a subgun and machine gun for less than the cheapest MG (and all things considered probably a superior gun vs an AC556). Just try manufacturing one part for use across a broad range of picky users.. and you’ll start to have some small idea of the true scope of this.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

it wont be hard to beat a AC556.....from watching richards videos i can tell it does already.....for about the same $ invested in a Mac and the 11/15 upper you could probably get a AC556...so it is a valid to directly compare these 2 guns

my Kac556k is a very cool gun, but it suuuucks in Full Auto

 

[Ericoak]

First let me state this. The only thing I get if the max11/15 gets to market is a couple of uppers. If Richard sells one or a thousand it doesn't benefit me in any way, shape or form. I gave the prototype to Richard because I felt he offered the best chance of bringing a quality rifle caliber upper to market in the least amount of time and had the infrastructure in place to offer the best customer support and service.

I have no machining background or training. I have a full time desk job as a software developer that at times takes up more of my time then I wish. I spent about 3 years playing with a mill, learning gcode and 3d modeling as a hobbie before I started on the prototype. The cost of the mill itself is nothing compared to the cost of the vices, end mills, holding tools, stepper motors, drivers, computer, etc. If I had to guess just related to my little mill setup I have over $5 grand invested, most likely more. Not much was specifically purchased to make the prototype, I've always been mechanically inclined and like to tinker, from hot rods to gun stuff so tools accumulated over time.

M11 SABRE's were selling for $2500 when I looked at them on the AA website. I refused to pay that much for a SABRE for my m11 which is one of the reasons I started the prototype. When I looked at the SABRE for what it was, a rifle caliber conversion upper for a pistol caliber sub machine gun I could understand the price point but the design, with all its custom made parts, I could see the limitations and flaws they introduced. Had the SABRE design been light weight, used more standard parts so it was easily re configured / maintained and had a standup company behind it things would have been different I would have paid the price for the SABRE and the prototype would never have been developed.

Everyone has their own view of value, worth and disposable income, that will determine who buys and who doesn't. I have ar15 / ar10 uppers with more than $1500 invested in them. Bottom line is the dollar isn't worth much today and things cost money. Some people get the costs and risks involved in the development of a new product combined with the everyday long term costs of simply keeping the business's doors open, some do not.

Like you said Scott how many companies are even offering things like this. Anyone that thinks that the price of the max11/15 is to high when it is released is entitled to that opinion and can always make their own. That is what I did

Thats F'in awesome!

This community and this forum would blow most peoples minds.

Thanks for making this possible!

 

[MACchat]

If you don't see the difference, I doubt if another member can explain that difference to you. By the same token, no one is requiring you to buy one. If you think if the upper is over $800, you don't want one, that is your choice. None of this is patented. If you can build one for $800, I'll send you $1,600 plus shipping costs and you can build me two. I am totally serious. I'll send the money to anyone that can prove to me that they will do it. There is also a very limited market. I've heard a few different #s, but the buyers for this product are only M11/9 RR owners. And what percentage of those owners will actually buy this product? 10%? How many MAX 11 pistol caliber uppers have been sold? Only Richard knows, but I bet it is not more than 10% of the total # of M11/9s in the registry.

All that time building, testing, submitting, refining, building updated versions, and then resubmitting is all time Richard could be spending making $900 uppers. Where does that cost go? To me this is worth at least $3,000. I know I can't build one for myself for $3,000. Between the design work, the programing, machine time and tooling, unless you have access to the machines and programming, I bet it would be $6,000-$10,000 to pay someone to do it.

Name for me a rifle caliber transferable machinegun besides a $20,000 M16 or a $30,000 HK sear that has also won national level submachinegun matches? I can't think of one. The only possibility I could think of was an AUG in 9mm. I don't know as anyone has won a match with one. Between the cost of the AUG sear, the base gun and the incredibly rare 9mm conversion and mags, that would still be a $20,000 gun.

Maybe "mak91" would share with us how many hours he spent getting proficient enough and how much his machines cost to make that first prototype. If it was that cheap and easy, everybody would be doing it. There are a few companies making OEM style parts. But how many companies, besides Lage is bringing new designs for MAC style RR to market? There is a huge lay out of time and resources to bring this product to market. I personally think there should be profit in making it. I'm sure Richard will let us know when he is actually ready to go to market what the price will be. I personally think his uppers are priced too low to start. Again, what would it cost me to make a slow fire upper? I'm sure a lot more than $800. That is probably why he has no competition. YMMV.

Scott

Scott,

I appreciate the detailed response. I was asking genuinely because I was curious as to how it all works... this is not my area of expertise. I should have said in my post that I wasn't suggesting it isn't worth the asking price. I certainly wasn't. I've handed over a few thousand to LM and have been thrilled with every purchase. I don't anticipate this one to be any different. And of course Richard should profit... as should everyone will skill and talent and love for what they do.

Although I didn't see the difference at first, I do now. So thank you. I'm in the first run and would pay $5k for it if that's where it ends up... with or without a hole.

 

[A&S Conversions]

That is awesome. I'm sorry if I came across as harsh. Developing products is hard. It can be easy to look at buying a complete AR for $400-$500 and think it shouldn't be that hard to adapt that to a MAC style RR. But it is. A big part of that is volume of scale. Times are hard in the firearms market right now. So some companies are just trying to keep the doors open. So profit isn't as much of a concern as cash flow. AR sales is for the general public, so there are millions of potential buyers for those $400-$500 ARs. This upper is only for owners of M11/9 RR machineguns.

There are always those that want the world on "the cheap". Certainly this product isn't for everyone with a M11/9 RR. And that is okay. It will also bring collectors that wern't interested in a subgun only but wanted a 5.56X45 type M16 style machinegun. But can't afford a M16. Those type of buyers will interested in an all in one rifle/pistol caliber machinegun that the MAC style RRs could become. With this upper in full production I think this will bring more collectors to this platform because of that versatility. That is why I feel the M16 and HK sears have doubled in the last five years while other guns have only had moderate increases in market value. With the slow fire options and the rifle caliber has risen MAC style RR values.

Scott

 

[challenger70rt]

You guys can fight about various theoretical prices all yinz want, as long as at the end of the day, Mr. Lage makes one of these for the M10 and then takes my money. PLEASE just take my money lol. I can always get a credit card and pay it off over a few months, but what I can’t afford to get is an M16. This upper coming down the pike was what made me get on board w a Mac in the first place. I figure the more awesome options that come out for this, the faster then guns are going to appreciate. I personally don’t think it’ll be too long before these are priced the same as uzi’s

 

[lokifox]

The IRM will not have as many options for people that like to tinker and refine operation. The IRM has one bolt mass and one recoil spring. The standard “hole” upper has a huge variety of springs and buffers to choose from.

An idea that's been kicking around in my head for a while has been realized by Ruger in the new PC9. Removable tungsten bolt weights.

Maybe a good aftermarket item, a bolt with recesses for aluminum/steel/tungsten inserts to fiddle with the recoil mass.

 

[EL DUCE]

I only own one Lage upper. When this comes out. I will own two! (I forget where I am on the list...) I am currently saving for it! I have nothing but respect for Mr. Lage, his products and his service! Granted my own experience is limited, but from what I see and read here he is the best.