Nighthawk Firearms M10 OBS Pistol Frame? Anyone heard of these?

20InchAR15

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Just curious if anyone heard of these I can't find any information regarding this frame? It appears to be an old OBS. Are these things legal? I know the SM10s were. The welds on magwell and trigger guard look dated. It also has the closed rear sight plate but has the provisions for stock carriage and slots for the original collapsing/folding stock or something else to accept a brace.

Opinions?
 

A&S Conversions

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After looking at the pictures of the Gun Broker auction, it looks to be an incomplete semi auto receiver. It would still transfer as a Title I firearm. There is no selector hole, for a full auto sear. But there is also no framework or fire control for an open bolt sear. Could closed bolt fire control be installed? I would think so, but what would you use for those parts? What would you use for a closed bolt bolt? Custom work is not cheap, unless you can do it yourself.

Could it be built into a Title I firearm? I think so. The tough part would be finding the parts to complete it. I think it is a cool peice of history, but without the parts to make it function, it would just be a Title I paper weight. What I see is a very big project.

Scott
 
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pjm204

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I was watching that auction but it went for more than made sense to me.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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nighthawk sold MAC parts and accessories out of Florida in the late 90s. They sold complete frames in all calibers, M11, M11/9 and M10. Some were from folded Cobray marked flats, early flats with the MAC/RPB serpent, not the SWD “Cobray” in a circle. They are decent looking frames that were tig welded the same way RPB/SWD did it. They are basically in open bolt semi auto configuration, drilled for the trigger pin hole but no closed bolt semi auto safety hole and no SMG sear pin/selector hole, they also did not have the sear block installed and were drilled for the sear stud. So technically the frame is set up for open bolt semi auto if you welded in the sear carriage like the originals, so there is no need to drill the sear hole, but you would have to be an SOT to do so, and it would be considered a machine gun regardless of it being semi auto (because it’s open bolt). In order to build one of those frames into a legal closed bolt gun you would have to drill the holes for the closed bolt safety selector (or have no safety).

Here’s a link to their old website on the way back machine

 

20InchAR15

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nighthawk sold MAC parts and accessories out of Florida in the late 90s. They sold complete frames in all calibers, M11, M11/9 and M10. Some were from folded Cobray marked flats, early flats with the MAC/RPB serpent, not the SWD “Cobray” in a circle. They are decent looking frames that were tig welded the same way RPB/SWD did it. They are basically in open bolt semi auto configuration, drilled for the trigger pin hole but no closed bolt semi auto safety hole and no SMG sear pin/selector hole, they also did not have the sear block installed and were drilled for the sear stud. So technically the frame is set up for open bolt semi auto if you welded in the sear carriage like the originals, so there is no need to drill the sear hole, but you would have to be an SOT to do so, and it would be considered a machine gun regardless of it being semi auto (because it’s open bolt). In order to build one of those frames into a legal closed bolt gun you would have to drill the holes for the closed bolt safety selector (or have no safety).

Here’s a link to their old website on the way back machine

Wait, so let me get this straight. This is a OBS configuration frame that technically should not not exist, but it does, and while legal to possess couldn't be made into an OBS configuration since it was made after the determination letter for the RPBs in the 80s. This is the MAC equivalent of the Title 1 M203 receiver, you just can't put the 40mm barrel on it......that's really stupid. Well I'll just go ahead and order this thing then because I'm willing to do a conversion to closed bolt semiautomatic. I mean this thing seems like a good M10 frame.


So I guess my question is, would you feel comfortable ordering one of these things or not really?
 

Deerhurst

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Yup, that's how I read it. It's not really a firearm yet until you drill the magic holes and once you do you are the manufacturer. Since it's after the open bolt cutoff open bolt is no go. Stupid but that's the law.

I wouldn't blink an eye at having it around. As far as I can tell it's basically an 80% receiver no different than an AK 80%. No FCG holes, no barrel or trunnion. Find some prints, fire up the mill and make a closed bolt semi from it! Enjoy!

To me it's not a big deal but I also have parts kits and I'm slowly working through the pile.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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Wait, so let me get this straight. This is a OBS configuration frame that technically should not not exist, but it does, and while legal to possess couldn't be made into an OBS configuration since it was made after the determination letter for the RPBs in the 80s. This is the MAC equivalent of the Title 1 M203 receiver, you just can't put the 40mm barrel on it......that's really stupid. Well I'll just go ahead and order this thing then because I'm willing to do a conversion to closed bolt semiautomatic. I mean this thing seems like a good M10 frame.


So I guess my question is, would you feel comfortable ordering one of these things or not really?
Sort of… the trigger hole location is the same on the open bolt guns and the closed bolt RPB/cobray/MPA/VMAC guns (but NOT the Texas M10A1s, so those old gunbusters Texas mac kits won’t work in this frame with those holes where they are).

This frame can be built into a closed bolt semi auto, using MPA-10 parts, but you would need to drill the 2 hammer holes and 2 safety selector holes (optional). The frame can also be readily assembled into an open bolt semi-auto, or full auto only configuration, without any drilling, if you have one of the old RPB sear carriages, or fabricate one yourself. If you wanted to build it up into a select fire machine gun, the 2 holes for the SMG selector switch/sear pin would have to be drilled.

So technically it’s not just open bolt configuration, it can be assembled either way depending on which parts you choose. I am not sure how the AFT feels about the frames without sear blocks but I know for a fact that at some point in the 90s, “FMJ” (another Wayne/Sylvia Daniel company) sold M11/9 pistols and M12 pistols, as well as stripped frames, that didn’t have the sear block installed and had the hole for the open bolt sear stud present on the bottom.

Maybe they slipped through the cracks… but I don’t think the sear block matters. Truth be told, as collectors and enthusiasts, we tend to be much more aware of the laws pertaining to these particular guns as well as the different hole placement for closed bolt vs open bolt etc…

I can assure you that the average AFT field agent is totally clueless when it comes to Ingrams and Ingram accessories. I know this from personal experience. They seem to be informed about the poly 80 glock frames and 80% AR lowers (to the point of tunnel vision), but totally clueless when it comes to MAC flats, frame weld sets, hole placement etc… I have actually witnessed an AFT field agent asking her colleagues if a ventilated slotted barrel extension for a MAC was a suppressor.

Maybe there are still some veterans who have not retired yet that have been around since the 90s, when MACs were all over the place, but the average AFT agent in their 20s-30s just doesn’t have much if any first hand experience with these guns, and most of them aren’t “gun guys” either, so it’s not like they’re researching the nuances of different MAC-10s on their free time.

They are no longer the first pick of criminals like they were 40 years ago, so the AFT probably isn’t wasting time and resources putting together powerpoint presentations about MAC flats for their field agents.

So the TLDR -

The frame is fine, it could be built up either way, closed or open bolt (SOT only), and the AFT doesn’t care about these or consider them to be machine guns. It’s a semi auto title 1 pistol frame, it will transfer as such on paper and it won’t backfire on you down the road.
 
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20InchAR15

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Yup, that's how I read it. It's not really a firearm yet until you drill the magic holes and once you do you are the manufacturer. Since it's after the open bolt cutoff open bolt is no go. Stupid but that's the law.

I wouldn't blink an eye at having it around. As far as I can tell it's basically an 80% receiver no different than an AK 80%. No FCG holes, no barrel or trunnion. Find some prints, fire up the mill and make a closed bolt semi from it! Enjoy!

To me it's not a big deal but I also have parts kits and I'm slowly working through the pile.
I don't know how you came to that conclusion or garnered that in any way, shape, or form. This is in no way an 80% frame at all. There's two FCG holes that are present, and that's your conclusion?
 

pjm204

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Wait, so let me get this straight. This is a OBS configuration frame that technically should not not exist, but it does, and while legal to possess couldn't be made into an OBS configuration since it was made after the determination letter for the RPBs in the 80s. This is the MAC equivalent of the Title 1 M203 receiver, you just can't put the 40mm barrel on it......that's really stupid. Well I'll just go ahead and order this thing then because I'm willing to do a conversion to closed bolt semiautomatic. I mean this thing seems like a good M10 frame.


So I guess my question is, would you feel comfortable ordering one of these things or not really?

What would the point of buying one of these be for the price they seem to sell for? The last one on GB sold for $405. Seems like a lot to pay when you can buy a new MPA for $399 at PSA when they're on sale (currently $520). Unless there is a place selling these frames for less?
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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I don't know how you came to that conclusion or garnered that in any way, shape, or form. This is in no way an 80% frame at all. There's two FCG holes that are present, and that's your conclusion?
Me neither, that thing is a 100% completed serialized title 1 frame. The middle portion alone without the grip is considered a firearm once it’s folded apparently, but I’ve seen plenty of folded flats in various stages of completion being sold without FFL requirements on GB and I doubt anyone ended up locked up for buying them. Anyway, yes the nighthawk frames are complete firearms and nobody ever implied otherwise that I am aware of.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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What would the point of buying one of these be for the price they seem to sell for? The last one on GB sold for $405. Seems like a lot to pay when you can buy a new MPA for $399 at PSA when they're on sale (currently $520). Unless there is a place selling these frames for less?
I don’t know of anyone that actually has a classic MPA-10 pistol in stock, let alone for $399. I haven’t seen one of the M10 closed bolt clones sell for less than 7-800 in years now and MPA hasn’t made their .45 M10 clone in over a decade or more as far as I know… don’t believe Velocity makes em anymore either. The only currently manufactured MPA MAC type pistols are those hideous Mpa930 M11/9 clones with the billet aluminum frames and Glock mags. Nobody makes or sells a classic style Mac semi auto pistol anymore. That nighthawk frame for 405 is a damn cool deal. Not to mention it doesn’t have the ugly closed bolt safety holes. I’d rather have the nighthawk frame than an MPA or VMAC, especially one that is made on an original RPB flat with the Cobray markings as many of their frames were.
 

Deerhurst

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I don't know how you came to that conclusion or garnered that in any way, shape, or form. This is in no way an 80% frame at all. There's two FCG holes that are present, and that's your conclusion?
Didn't recognize the holes since I'm an MG guy and no experience with SA Macs.

I have bought 80% AK recovers with FCG holes but nothing else. No shits given here. Build something or walk away seems about right.

Everything seems to have different requirements. An AK receiver these days cannot have FCG pins but an AR receiver cannot have a FCG pocket but this other one can. FAFT.

What conclusion? I think you've confused us both.
 

saxon

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MPA is no longer producing the classic Brick MAC any more just their newer version mac that to me is a waist of time and effort,
and yes once folded the mac plate becomes a title 1 , no weld or nothing just folding it makes it so,





side note the early MPA macs only had a rod tacked in place and didn’t have a sear block installed
 
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pjm204

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I don’t know of anyone that actually has a classic MPA-10 pistol in stock, let alone for $399. I haven’t seen one of the M10 closed bolt clones sell for less than 7-800 in years now and MPA hasn’t made their .45 M10 clone in over a decade or more as far as I know… don’t believe Velocity makes em anymore either. The only currently manufactured MPA MAC type pistols are those hideous Mpa930 M11/9 clones with the billet aluminum frames and Glock mags. Nobody makes or sells a classic style Mac semi auto pistol anymore. That nighthawk frame for 405 is a damn cool deal. Not to mention it doesn’t have the ugly closed bolt safety holes. I’d rather have the nighthawk frame than an MPA or VMAC, especially one that is made on an original RPB flat with the Cobray markings as many of their frames were.

Correct, I was referring to their new style 9mm. I realize it's not apples to apples.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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MPA is no longer producing the classic Brick MAC any more just their newer version mac that to me is a waist of time and effort,
and yes once folded the mac plate becomes a title 1 , no weld or nothing just folding it makes it so,





side note the early MPA macs only had a rod tacked in place and didn’t have a sear block installed
the tacked rod is effectively a “sear block”, just a different shape than the one that was commonly used I suppose. It blocks the installation of a sear, so it serves the same purpose.
 

saxon

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the tacked rod is effectively a “sear block”, just a different shape than the one that was commonly used I suppose. It blocks the installation of a sear, so it serves the same purpose.
oh i know, when i first got it i was all " really, that's all they are using lol "
 

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