POST '86 MACHINE GUNS - May Become Legal to Own

[strobro32]

Kentucky HB 749 and it is still active. The text of the bill is available if you look it up.

The Glock switch bill has already become law. That specifically prohibits "conversion devices" that convert a "firearm" to fullauto.

They want to let you buy MGs but not convert them?

 

[Slowmo]

Fortunately we have at least a few federal courts of appeals that have been getting it right. Whenever you combine that with the ones that have been getting it wrong consistently you have a circuit court split, where it is perfectly legal to do something on this side of the street but when you cross the street into a different circuit you now become a felon for the exact same conduct. That is the sort of thing that the supreme Court sees a need to remedy.

Unfortunately they tend to wait years for an issue to what they call percolate, basically they want to make sure everybody has got every conceivable argument figured out before they take it on. And they often wait on a case that has the desired elements they want to rule on or more often doesn't have elements they don't want to rule on.

All that is true in some instances, but they also let splits exist for decades at times. A persistent split can then turn into a reason not to resolve the issue (i.e. not disrupt the status quo). SCOTUS has historically done a better job of concealing its political agenda, but it is a political organ nonetheless. It picks the cases it wants to resolve based on that agenda. The Alito concurrence in the bumpstock case suggests to me that the conservative bloc would not be united on de-regulating machine guns. They may be content with the way things are.

 

[UziSMG]

They want to let you buy MGs but not convert them?

Yes, that appears to be the case.

The problem that is trying to be solved is the proliferation of all the hood rats in Louisville and a couple of other cities walking around with Glocks converted with a "switch", creating paranoia among law enforcement. So, they banned the use, possession, buying or selling or otherwise transferring any type of conversion device.

HB 749 is completely different. It covers creating a new Office of Public Defense within Kentucky State Police to oversee the sale and transfer of machine guns. Under the bill, each state police post would serve as a point of sale and transfer.

Whether this new bill if passed into law would facilitate the manufacture of new machineguns by manufacturers that could be for sale to the general public is yet to be seen, however that is what is being intimated by all the language I've read so far.

I'm all for it if it is managed correctly and gives people the ability to own new MGs at a reasonable price.

 

[strobro32]

Gun control is punishing the innocent for the acts of the guilty.
Law is will of the powerful.
History is what supports those in power.

 

[atfsux]

So if I could get a newly made copy of an AM177 for under $4000, I'd be very erect.

 

[ericthered]

So... lets say the bill passes. KY state police set up gunshops. Would a KY resident be able to buy a MG from the state. Then sell it to someone in another state on a form 4?

 

[Slowmo]

So... lets say the bill passes. KY state police set up gunshops. Would a KY resident be able to buy a MG from the state. Then sell it to someone in another state on a form 4?

I don’t think so. The entire theory is that the Hughes amendment doesn’t apply to transfers by various governments (see 18 U.S.C. 922(o)(2)(A) below), so a state government can sell you a machine gun if it wants to. Once it is in private hands however, transferring it to another private citizen is no longer a transfer by the government.

(o)
(1)
Except as provided in paragraph (2), it shall be unlawful for any person to transfer or possess a machinegun.
(2)This subsection does not apply with respect to—
(A)
a transfer to or by, or possession by or under the authority of, the United Statesor any department or agency thereof or a State, or a department, agency, or political subdivision thereof; or
(B)
any lawful transfer or lawful possession of a machinegun that was lawfully possessed before the date this subsection takes effect.

 

[atfsux]

I imagine many will be mysteriously "disappeared" by unexplained burglaries in normally very safe neighborhoods. Covered by homeowners insurance policies, of course.

 

[UziSMG]

I imagine many will be mysteriously "disappeared" by unexplained burglaries in normally very safe neighborhoods. Covered by homeowners insurance policies, of course.

As always, anything is possible.

I can also imagine that lots of current longtime machinegun owners will also be broadly expanding their current collections with new guns that are affordable.

 

[atfsux]

As always, anything is possible.

I can also imagine that lots of current longtime machinegun owners will also be broadly expanding their current collections with new guns that are affordable.

We fellow board members may suddenly be seeking your counsel on how (and how quickly) to establish KY residency.

 

[skoda]

We fellow board members may suddenly be seeking your counsel on how (and how quickly) to establish KY residency.

Let's set up a group residency like companies have shell headquarters in the Cayman Islands so they can avoid taxes and whatever. Get your MG and then file a 5320.20 to take it home.

 

[UziSMG]

We fellow board members may suddenly be seeking your counsel on how (and how quickly) to establish KY residency.

Well, I'm not a lawyer and don't give legal advice but it's pretty easy.

 

[slimshady]

Unfortunately from what I understand currently if you are a police officer say and you want to attend training or competition with your Department issued post 86 MP5 or whatever and it is not officially sanctioned as part of your duties, ATF will not approve the form. If they don't do that for cops, do you really think they're going to approve one for a civilian they don't want to have it in the first place?

 

[Slowmo]

Let's set up a group residency like companies have shell headquarters in the Cayman Islands so they can avoid taxes and whatever. Get your MG and then file a 5320.20 to take it home.

Can you transfer the gun to a corporation? I’m pretty sure I recall SS having wait times for Form 4s to corporations. If so, maybe you could start a Kentucky corporation to receive the gun, though I have no idea which persons could physically possess it under that structure.

 

[Slowmo]

Unfortunately from what I understand currently if you are a police officer say and you want to attend training or competition with your Department issued post 86 MP5 or whatever and it is not officially sanctioned as part of your duties, ATF will not approve the form. If they don't do that for cops, do you really think they're going to approve one for a civilian they don't want to have it in the first place?

I’m guessing cops haven’t bothered to sue over it. It’s a pretty solid textualist argument, and textualism has been the gospel of SCOTUS for some time now. I’m sure it will meet resistance, but I imagine the architects of the law are already anticipating that.

 

[slimshady]

I'm not sure how the various NFA laws and regulations interact exactly when it comes to the government. Basically if you are a federal agency as far as I know there is absolutely no NFA regulations that apply at all. Which is why you keep getting situations where ATF and other agencies can't account for all of their machine guns. They can't even tell you how many they're supposed to have with 100% certainty. Some agencies tracked them as a special inventory item, others as far as the paperwork is concerned it was the same as a cell phone or a laptop computer. They can have direct government contracts with manufacturers or importers and can buy from any FFL without filling out a 4473 if they present a purchase order on agency letterhead.

Now State and lower agencies, they don't pay any tax but they also have to do the registration just like everybody else except the feds. Most laws have the 'except for us" exception at the end so I have no idea other than filling out a form what the language of the actual law does or does not exempt them from as regards to NFA requirements. Even if the law says they have to get permission to take out of state and all that sort of thing, it could be argued as a 10th amendment states rights issue. Especially if it doesn't and this is just ATF adding their own regulations.

Such is the current case with the Hughes amendment. It's simply states that the machine gun ban does not apply to the states and their agencies. ATF however says they will only transfer law enforcement appropriate firearms. M16, mp5, MP7, the odd Aug or Uzi perhaps. But if you put in a transfer request for something like a world War I Vickers expect to be denied. Again states rights, who is the Federal government agency to tell a state they can only acquire arms that are approved by the federal government? Especially when they made the regulation up out of whole cloth without any explicit restriction in the law itself.

If we can get some state attorney generals on board, there might be some interesting court cases coming up in the next few years...

 

[atfsux]

I'm sure all the state has to do in anoint you with the title of "deputy" something or other, and bing bang boom,...you're a government agent in reserve status or something.

 

[slimshady]

I think the hook that West Virginia at least was using is these are to enhance the state's ability to defend itself, basically it's arming it's Militia by selling machine guns to the General public. I would assume Kentucky is similar.

 

[Gaffshot]

For KY residency tax purposes, you have to be physically be present in the state for 183 or more days per year. Owning property is not sufficient to establish residency.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

Department issued post 86 MP5 or whatever and it is not officially sanctioned as part of your duties

If the gun is dept issued to a cop, what has to happen to make it officially sanctioned as part of that cops duties?