Registered sear breakage?

[sonvolt]

As the owner of a Fleming Model B Registered Sear conversion, I am given to wonder, have any of you actually known (first-hand) of a registered sear to break? The theoretical proposition of a sear breaking and being unrepairable without defacing the inscribed serial number marking is worrisome, but I wonder if any of us have ever actually known of this to happen.

I've often read it said that you can't simply have a licensed manufacturer inscribe a new sear and destroy the old one, so I'm wondering how this situation has been handled if anyone actually knows of a case of registered sear breakage.

Thanks,
DeWayne

 

[litfire145]

As the owner of a Fleming Model B Registered Sear conversion, I am given to wonder, have any of you actually known (first-hand) of a registered sear to break? The theoretical proposition of a sear breaking and being unrepairable without defacing the inscribed serial number marking is worrisome, but I wonder if any of us have ever actually known of this to happen.

I've often read it said that you can't simply have a licensed manufacturer inscribe a new sear and destroy the old one, so I'm wondering how this situation has been handled if anyone actually knows of a case of registered sear breakage.

Thanks,
DeWayne

Not first hand but I have been under the impression that repairing a sear/bolt with a newly scribed serial number is a “eyes wide shut” sort of thing. It’s illegal and I don’t condone it whatsoever. But, it’s that or be out in today’s money about $15k.

Sort of like registered lightning links for the AR-15. They have a tendency to break. I’m sure you can imagine how two small pieces of 18 gauge sheet metal get repaired. Again, it’s not legal. But two pieces of sheet metal I think have a going rate of 10k-12k right now.

For the old guard, don’t come after me for saying that stuff. It’s clear I said it’s illegal and it’s not recommended. That disclaimer is so I don’t get chastised for saying what usually ends up happening in the real world when serialized wear items…wear out, lol.

 

[sonvolt]

Yeah, I realize it might make too much common sense, but it would seem that if you took the broken sear to the ATF and turned it over (to be further destroyed) they could grant permission to have a replacement part so inscribed. There would still be only one part so numbered in the known universe. But again, that would make sense and thus, I suspect ATF would not agree. I'd call and ask, but the odds of getting an agent who knows are slim, and even if someone did tell me that, I'd want it in writing before I ever tried to actually do it. One guy on the phone isn't worth much.

 

[litfire145]

Yeah, I realize it might make too much common sense, but it would seem that if you took the broken sear to the ATF and turned it over (to be further destroyed) they could grant permission to have a replacement part so inscribed. There would still be only one part so numbered in the known universe. But again, that would make sense and thus, I suspect ATF would not agree. I'd call and ask, but the odds of getting an agent who knows are slim, and even if someone did tell me that, I'd want it in writing before I ever tried to actually do it. One guy on the phone isn't worth much.

Fairly certain people have pursued that avenue of thought officially and it’s just not legally possible under their rules. Well, I would do some digging and see what guys here have to say before sending them a letter. 10 agents will have 10 different interpretations of the law.

From what I have heard from being around all this stuff for most of my life is things might break or wear irreparably but it’s usually a slim chance of happening unless something catastrophic happens. But, something like your sear, when they “do” wear out they simply “do not”. In the mad rush just prior to May 1986 lots of stuff got sloppy freehand electro penciling or crappy engine number punch stamps.

It’s not legally right or recommended.

 

[sonvolt]

Yes, as I recall, the inscription on my sear looks like Fleming used a cheap hobby store electro-pencil.

 

[delta-10]

My Qualified does as well

 

[mike]

I had to sear break one time it wasn’t a registered sear after many thousands of rounds.

 

[Slowmo]

I suspect many people who may have been in the scenario that you described simply did what is purportedly not permitted and remained tight lipped about it.

Not specific to your Uzi, but it’s easy to take for granted how much information is on the internet and at our fingertips. It was not that long ago that even a gun enthusiast had no idea what the ATF said was right or wrong. They probably had no idea that the ATF even wrote opinion letters. Who knows what took place back then. Who knows if your registered item is even the same one that was originally registered. The NFA has been around close to 100 years with decades of people operating in the dark and leaving little or no paper trail (physical or digital).

 

[pmf]

I had to sear break one time it wasn’t a registered sear after many thousands of rounds.

Me too. A full sized Vector. It didn't break, but it was worn to the point that the gun would shoot 2-3 rounds after I let go of the trigger.

Registered sears have always struck me as kind of a risky proposition. Its just a tiny piece of metal. If it breaks, there's no way on earth ATF will say sure, make another one and put the same serial number on it.

 

[RoverDave]

As the owner of a Fleming Model B Registered Sear conversion, I am given to wonder, have any of you actually known (first-hand) of a registered sear to break? The theoretical proposition of a sear breaking and being unrepairable without defacing the inscribed serial number marking is worrisome, but I wonder if any of us have ever actually known of this to happen.

I've seen parts kits with broken sears. They aren't registered as you asked in your question, but the chances of breaking are the same whether registered or not. The more concerning thing to me is wear. Some look pretty shabby in parts kits. They are softer than the bolt and do get beat up over time. Most people with transferable guns don't shoot them enough to worry, but it's true that it's a more vulnerable part than the bolt or receiver.

 

[Slowmo]

I've seen parts kits with broken sears. They aren't registered as you asked in your question, but the chances of breaking are the same whether registered or not. The more concerning thing to me is wear. Some look pretty shabby in parts kits. They are softer than the bolt and do get beat up over time. Most people with transferable guns don't shoot them enough to worry, but it's true that it's a more vulnerable part than the bolt or receiver.

I have seen some sears that have a stamped “X” that I believe signifies some kind of heat treat. Not sure if they are harder or softer, but they seem to be in what I believe are the later style fire control groups, so presumably they are supposed to be an improvement.

 

[sonvolt]

I wonder if a firearm insurance policy could be structured so as to have a provision that insures against breakage of the sear? Because, legally, it sounds like sear destruction is tantamount to destroying the gun for all intents and purposes.

 

[litfire145]

I wonder if a firearm insurance policy could be structured so as to have a provision that insures against breakage of the sear? Because, legally, it sounds like sear destruction is tantamount to destroying the gun for all intents and purposes.

You can get insurance for anything. You declare the value and they tell you the price. Bet it costs more than a full auto trigger group from rtgparts, for reference.

 

[sonvolt]

I'm sure it would, but the price of being able to sleep through the night without nightmares of federal prison is money well spent in my opinion.

 

[Slowmo]

I'm sure it would, but the price of being able to sleep through the night without nightmares of federal prison is money well spent in my opinion.

It would probably be cheaper in the long run to sell the Uzi you have and buy a registered receiver Uzi.

 

[sonvolt]

I talked to Gun & Trophy Insurance today, which deals Hanover insurance, and explained the situation. The guy was familiar and understood the problem but said they don't insure guns for damage incurred in firing, and doesn't know anyone who does. In other words, there's no way they would insure against sear breakage or wear. And you can see their point - I could by a $16,000 Uzi, shoot the living crap out of it until the sear wore beyond service, and then the insurance company pays me $16,000???? Not a good business proposition for them. That'd be liking insuring a cigar against fire damage!

That answers that question.

 

[pmf]

Whatever kind of steel an uzi bolt is made of, its some really hard stuff.

 

[sonvolt]

I have read in a few places online that Fleming's H&K sears were made from hardened steel, so one might surmise his UZI sears are made of same. I suppose I could have mine hardness tested if I really wanted to know, but I'm not sure it would change anything. Realistically, this gun just won't have many rounds put through it under my ownership, so it's probably not an issue.

It also appears that unless the sear broke right across the section through which the pin goes, there is ample room on the sear legs for repair welding/grinding to be done without defacing the inscription. So, if the engagement surfaces were to wear down, or one of the legs to break where they become quite narrow, that would seem to my non-welder self, to be a viable repair. Just hoping I never have to find out for real.

 

[slimshady]

Fleming HK sears were made by him because HK OEM parts back then were rare.

The UZI one appears to be an IMI one he registered and engraved, not something he made.

 

[amphibian]

Fleming HK sears were made by him because HK OEM parts back then were rare.

The UZI one appears to be an IMI one he registered and engraved, not something he made.

Bear in mind that registered HK sears are CONVERSION sears not factory HK sears....analogous to like RLL and RDIAS were never made by Colt either.

Registered UZI sears are just full auto factory SMG sears that Fleming and Qualified registered as MGs....then later ATF caught up with them and told them they couldn't do that anymore as that it wasn't creating a new MG (but grandfathered them and in the case of Fleming, marry them to the receivers). In the case of the full size we all know that slotting the bolt or removing the rail in the receiver is creating a new MG. In the case of the mini, it is relieving the trunion.

Which is the only way you can have an uncut transferable Mini is via the registered sear or bolt since the Mini didn't come into the US till 1987.

I also had a full size Fleming sear gun where he removed the blocking rail from the receiver. I presume he had more sears than guns at the time.

I spoke to Fleming before he died and he told me was on waiting lists for all kinds of guns to convert so I presume as soon as he did them they were sold.