RPB SAP MAC 10, 45 caliber Open bolt date of build?

[GHB]

Trying to get some info on this 45 caliber open bolt SAP MAC 10. I've ordered "The MAC Man" book but don't have it yet. I'm seeing serial numbers that start with 81, but mine just has "SAP 452096." I'm still reading up on the MAC history. I'm assuming this is a "Pre ban" weapon and legal to own without any permits. Any help would be appreciated! Thanks!

 

[A&S Conversions]

You asked about legality. Since you are new here, I wanted to mention that there could be an issue with that aspect of this firearm. If you search for posts authored by me, you can get some background information for that issue. What you do with that information is up to you.

The short answer is yes, it is currently legal to own if in the original configuration. Has there been any modifications done in the last 45 years? Detail photos would be helpful. There is certainly collectibility value. The downside is that it has all the downsides of the original submachine gun without actually being a submachine gun. There are those who value the nostalgia collectability, over shootability, so that is for you to decide. There are certainly members who are very knowledgeable and can answer your specific questions. What do you have for magazines? Has the original mag catch been replaced with the dual use mag catch? Do you have any interest in 9 mm conversion? There is a drop in conversion. The search feature is your friend. Welcome to the community.

Scott

 

[GHB]

Thank you Scott! I'm mostly interested in the collectibility of this particular firearm. I will disassemble it and post some pictures. I don't know if it's been modified. I actually acquired it at a Bass Pro shop in their gun library. Any info would be greatly appreciated. I'll also search for your posts.

 

[A&S Conversions]

If anything, I would buy a new buffer and recoil spring, if you planned to fire it. It certainly has collector value right now. But just like so many things that the ATF has done, they can’t “grandfather” firearms. Something is or is not a machine gun. The FPA of ‘86 limited the registration of new machine guns to private individuals. That was a change in the law on May 19, 1986. There was no change in the laws concerning open bolt guns from 1980 to 1981. So many times the ATF have changed determinations because of a political change in the government, without any change to the law governing it. I feel like that has a huge effect on how screwed up the NFA registry is.

Keep it, sell it, whatever you think is the right thing for you. I would want to know of the issue I brought up before buying such an item. Good luck with whatever you decide to do. I don’t know the extent of your firearms collection, but for me, I sold almost all of my collection to help gather enough funds to buy my first machine gun, including the first firearm I ever bought. It was hard to let some of those guns go. But with those funds and getting a great deal from a friend, I was able to buy that first one. I have never looked back. Dumping a Beta-C, always brings a smile to my face. YMMV.

Scott

 

[Deerhurst]

Definitely check/replace the buffer if you plan to shoot it.

Lots of BS around all the AFT stuff. Open bolts made before a specific date are legal. They were banned from manufactur due to being "too easy to make into a machine gun". As we know, Congress makes laws and could easily strike every firearm illegal. MGs and open bolt semis are no different.


Enjoy your SAP. I enjoy open bolt semis and for some reason keep collecting Marlin Model 50 open bolt rifles. They are rare, 5000 made in the early 30s and about 20 years ago the estimate was 500 left. Cool stuff like these are not made anymore and are a really cool piece of history.

 

[azakms]

I have a pretty good collection of semi open bolts. Think they are a cool piece of history.

 

[GHB]

I just want to be 100 percent sure that this one is preban legal. I'm still learning about them. I'd love to confirm the manufacture date.

 

[azakms]

@MitchWerbellsGhost87

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

I just want to be 100 percent sure that this one is preban legal. I'm still learning about them. I'd love to confirm the manufacture date.

Yes it’s legal, regardless of the SN or production date of the gun, as the manufacture of these guns ceased prior to the law being passed that banned them, so all of them are legal. The open bolt semi auto RPB pistols were manufactured from 1978-82. The production of these guns stopped right before the law went into effect in 1982. RPB liquidated their inventory and assets at public auction as a result of the law being passed that banned any future manufacture of their best selling product. That said, every single one of the RPB open bolt semi auto M10 pistols on the market is a perfectly legal title 1 firearm unless it was illegally altered to fire full auto or a counterfeit fake made after 1982 (this one is not a counterfeit or fake, they are very easy to spot ). They never made any of these open bolt semi autos after the legal cut off date and all of the pistols that were made before the cut off date were grandfathered in (the ATF successfully does a lot of things they “can’t” do, since they are the ones tasked with enforcing it) and are no different than any other semi auto pistol in the eyes of the law. Your gun is perfectly legal and “Preban” (federally anyway, don’t know what state you live in and individual states have their own laws which might prohibit this pistol! in regards to the ban of open bolt semi auto firearms in 1982, as well as “Preban” in regards to the federal assault weapons ban of 1994, which the phrase “Preban” typically refers to.

 

[root]

They pop up locally here in the shops.
I've seen 3 of the OB guns since probably 2010 under glass without even looking for them.
Also have a friend who bought the 1st one I ran across after telling him about it.
Like mentioned all the hallmarks of the OG Mac without all the fun.

 

[GHB]

Yes it’s legal, regardless of the SN or production date of the gun, as the manufacture of these guns ceased prior to the law being passed that banned them, so all of them are legal. The open bolt semi auto RPB pistols were manufactured from 1978-82. The production of these guns stopped right before the law went into effect in 1982. RPB liquidated their inventory and assets at public auction as a result of the law being passed that banned any future manufacture of their best selling product. That said, every single one of the RPB open bolt semi auto M10 pistols on the market is a perfectly legal title 1 firearm unless it was illegally altered to fire full auto or a counterfeit fake made after 1982 (this one is not a counterfeit or fake, zthey are very easy to spot MF). They never made any of these open bolt semi autos after the legal cut off date and all of the pistols that were made before the cut off date were grandfathered in and are no different than any other semi auto pistol in the eyes of the law. Your gun is perfectly legal and “Preban” (federally anyway, don’t know what state you live in and individual states have their own laws which might prohibit this pistol! in regards to the ban of open bolt semi auto firearms in 1982, as well as “Preban” in regards to the federal assault weapons ban of 1994, which the phrase “Preban” typically refers to.

Definitely appreciate the clarification on the subject.

 

[GHB]

They pop up locally here in the shops.
I've seen 3 of the OB guns since probably 2010 under glass without even looking for them.
Also have a friend who bought the 1st one I ran across after telling him about it.
Like mentioned all the hallmarks of the OG Mac without all the fun.

I spotted this one in the gun library at a Bass Pro shop and jumped on it. Had to have it.

 

[charles_the_hammer]

You asked about legality.

Big mistake, new guy.

Since you are new here, I wanted to mention that there could be an issue with that aspect of this firearm. If you search for posts authored by me, you can get some background information for that issue. What you do with that information is up to you.

New guy @GHB - there is absolutely nothing "illegal" about your weapon, even though @A&S Conversions has dedicated a large portion of the time he spends here hopping into SAP threads to write about some obscure legal ruling that no one has ever heard of or actually cares about in order to try and make SAP owners paranoid that the ATF is going to kick their door down and shoot their dog before whisking them way to prison for a minimum of 10 years. If you use the "search" feature as he advised, you will see that he is almost always the first person to reply to any thread about a SAP MAC so that he can opine on this obscure legal ruling which he uses to try and terrify SAP MAC owners. He truly hates these open-bolt semi-autos but does a good job of masking this simmering hatred behind "I just want to put the information out there - do with it what you will" posts.

Enjoy your new open-bolt and COMPLETELY LEGAL semi-auto MAC.

 

[A&S Conversions]

No. 12-2205
United States vs. Dodson

Dodson had a bunch of DIASs that he had proof that they were made before the 81-4. He continued to sell them (in Shotgun News) for years beyond the November 1, 1981 cut off of when the ATF in Ruling 81-4 determined that a DIAS was a machine gun in and of itself. He eventually was raided by the ATF. He had some other stuff he should not have had. His defense for the DIASs was that in the original ruling, the was a provision that those who possessed DIASs prior to November 1, 1981 would not be subject to making, possession, or transfer tax prior to the date of enactment. He was convicted on all counts. He appealed to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals. On May 29, 2013 their ruling was filed. In part it read:

“.. pre 1981 owners (of DIASs) are exempt from criminal prosecution for past possession of an unregistered machine gun, U.S.C. 26 5861(d). But post 1981 transfers an possessions -even of previously manufactured auto sears - must be subject to the tax and registration requirements of the National Firearms Act.”

The ATF can not “grandfather” enforcement of the law. They don’t make law Congress does.

The Ruling for DIAS as a Machine Gun is 81-4

The Ruling for semi automatic open bolt pistols and carbines are NFA firearms is 82-8.

Under https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/undefined/atf-national-firearms-act-handbook-appendix-b/download there is a description of 82-8. In part it says:

“…this ruling will not apply to SM10, SM11A1 pistols, and SAC carbines manufactured or assembled before June 21, 1982.

But just the same as the DIAS, the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled above, ATF can not “exempt from criminal prosecution for past possession of an unregistered machine gun.”

Do I think that the Black helicopters are circling your safe and they are about to “make entry” of your home? Of course not. To me I see a parallel between the two items that ATF has determined are machine guns. If you don’t, we have a difference of opinion.

I see a possible issue. With a retail price around $1,500 to $2,000, it is not something I would want to risk my money on. If you don’t see a problem, buy as many as you. I don’t care.

But if I am new to this type of firearm, I would want to know this information, so that I could make an informed buying decision. Why you guys want to run me down over wanting to inform other members of a possible issue, frankly I don’t understand.

Scott

 

[charles_the_hammer]

No. 12-2205
United States vs. Dodson

Oh boy here we go again.... Right on time....

Dodson had a bunch of DIAS

Good thing we are taking about a pistol and not drop-in auto sears.

But if I am new to this type of firearm, I would want to know this information, so that I could make an informed buying decision.

Most of these threads aren't guys looking to "make an informed buying decision". They have already purchased the pistol and come here to post pics of it and discuss their new purchase. You gleefully rush to these threads to inform them that they "actually own an illegal unregistered machine gun according to this court case I found". As far as I know you aren't a lawyer and you don't even play one on TV so I don't know where you get off dispensing legal advice.

Why you guys want to run me down over wanting to inform other members of a possible issue, frankly I don’t understand.

Gee I don't know? Maybe because you pop into every single thread about a MAC SAP (including mine) to inform the new owner that they are actually committing a federal felony and could be looking at tens - possibly hundreds - of thousands of dollars in legal fees and years of their life spent in a federal penitentiary for buying something that's been sold on the open market with ZERO paperwork for nearly half a century?

Or maybe it's the way you drop these insinuations and then smugly hide behind the "Gee guys don't get mad at me I'm only trying to help out" nonsense?

THESE PISTOLS ARE LEGAL
YOU ARE NOT A LAWYER

 

[A&S Conversions]

And neither are you! I get that this issue doesn’t concern you. Great, but both ATF Rulings (81-4 and 82-8), according to the Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals, the ATF is not able to do. They are not capable of “grandfathering” anything.

The ATF makes determinations as to whether something is or is not under the control of the Gun Control Act ( a Tital I firearm) or the National Firearms Act (a Title II Firearm). If you disagree with the ATF determination, it is my understanding that the court system would be petitioned.

Is anyone going to arrest you for having an open bolt pistol? I doubt it. That is not my point. My point is that there is an issue. Yet again, the ATF went beyond their authority.

My point in taking the time to dig this information out and post it, is so others will have this information to make an informed decisions. I don’t know, but it seems like the original poster, either didn’t take the time to research, or simply impulse bought. What they do with their pistol, again, it makes no difference to me. They asked about legality. The ATF went beyond their authority. I consider that to be a legality issue.

BTW, MitchWerbellsGhost87, I am very much in awe of your vast knowledge of these guns, their features and accessories. You have always been very precise about the details. Details do matter.

I just don’t understand, why you would post such incorrect information when you posted above “The production of these guns stopped right before the law went into effect in 1982.” There was no change in the law. Congress made no such change in the law. This, at least to me, is a very important detail.

The ATF makes many rulings that they think are law to facilitate the head of the Firearm and Ammunition Technology Division, the ATF Director, or current administration’s priorities rather than what the law actually says, because they can. Just because they chose to do so, does not make it right, or for that matter legal.

The ATF can not make law. So they can not grandfather anything. These guns will continue to go up in value. I would imagine, somewhere along the line, another administration might very well look into what the ATF has done and work at “fixing” this issue and many to reduce firearms in circulation without Congress. At least right now, the ATF seems to think that open bolt equals machine gun.

What is more likely, they open the registry and allow all these open bolt Title I firearms into the registry as machine guns? Or, the ATF are going to give a grace period to destroy or turn in these open bolt guns. After that grace period, these open bolt guns will be considered unregistered machine guns. I bet the destroy/turn them in is much more likely.


Again, owning an open bolt Title I firearm is legal to possess, at least Federally right now. Could what the ATF chose to do but shouldn’t have, become an issue? I don’t know, not my circus, not my monkeys. Buying such a firearm, could have an issue down the road. That is your choice.

Scott

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Pre-82 RPB Open bolt semi autos, as well as others like the Interdynamic KG-9, DEMRO/TAC/FOX/WASP etc have been sold openly for 43 years now as title 1 non-NFA items. Do we have an example of one person having been arrested and convicted of an NFA violation for owning one?

These guns are very old news, more than half of the 23 year old ATF agents in the field these days can’t even identify an open vs closed bolt MAC style pistol (or any MAC pistol at all). It’s a different era… the ATF doesn’t care about these clunky 3,000 dollar 5 pound stamped steel open bolt semi auto RPB collectors items anymore, or the law abiding gun collectors who want to purchase them 100% legally through their local FFL on a form 4473. These things aren’t coming from some shady “pre-81 DIAS” ad in the back of shotgun news… (neither is anything else for that matter, for the last 35 years)

Nowadays the powers that be are looking for poly 80 ghost guns and 3d printed lowers, 3d printed glock switches, 3d printed suppressors and Chinese solvent traps etc etc.. yes there was a time when the open bolt guns were the baddest scariest thing you could purchase on the open market (decades ago), those times have long since passed. I can go on eBay right now and order a totally illegal Chinese solvent trap suppressor, or go on one of those crappy import apps like TEMU and order a Chinese glock back plate switch… the ATF Doesn’t care about these open bolt semi autos that they have deemed to be legal now for nearly half a century that are almost primarily purchased by well-to-do collectors.

I don’t think the legality of these guns should even be mentioned at all when they are discussed on here. I don’t think anyone under the age of 70 would ever even consider the RPB open bolt semi auto to be something that is even remotely on the ATFs radar anymore… those days have long passed. They are LEGAL, end of story. It honestly comes off as “dry snitching” in my opinion.. which is a term commonly used in prison, and it means to basically discuss something very loudly out in the open so that the officers can hear it (or in this case read it) without making it too obvious that one is intentionally tattling to the powers that be.

Stop giving them ideas….


As to my “incorrect information” that you quoted. Pretty sure everyone is agreement (except you) that the ATFs “rulings” might as well be “the law” (unfortunately) when it comes to this subject. Since they are the ones tasked with enforcing it, and they are the ones who define to congress what IS and ISNT a machine gun.. and their “rulings” are the policies that we have to abide by, regardless of the technicalities or who has the final say. No, congress didn’t change the law, but the ATF changed their definition of “machine gun” and they are the ones tasked with enforcing those laws… so their rulings play a very large role in the way the actual laws themselves are enforced, and what we can and can not have.


I don’t have a problem with you or anyone on this board, but I do have a problem with these “open bolts are illegal posts”. It pisses me off.

Why don’t you just stop doing this on every open bolt semi thread. Learn to read the room… nobody else here agrees with you about this subject.. We don’t need this anti open bolt semi auto bullshit FUDD rhetoric being spewed on this board. It’s not good for our cause, it’s fear mongering about something that has been a dead issue for nearly half a century. Just accept that the RPB open bolt semi auto pistol is legal already… whether YOU like it or not.

 

[Deerhurst]

We have a documented charge for NFA violation for a guy with a rubber foot stuck on the tube of his AR pistol so it didn't slide around in his safe. AFT said it was a stock. If they think they can get away with it they will try. They got away with Ruby ridge and Waco that should show what they are OK with.

Now, little Charlie needs to cool it. Not cool to be an asshole over minute details especially when trying to call out and hassle other members of the forum. Most people are generally stupid or malinformed. We had a local kid take an AK he was trying to make FA to our local SOT and ask if he could make it run. Yeah, that level of dumb/malinformed. SOT ended up getting a parts kit out of it and the kid lost the rifle and learned a couple things he should have researched before getting to work.


Would be neat if everyone could actually read respondses before making replies. Makes me think I'm back on the general discussion on ARFCOM. Yeah, it's that level.


Long ago we all came to the same conclusion that open bolts prior to the ban are OK and CURRENTLY legal. Enjoy them. Shoot them. Share them. We all agree this could change tomorrow if Congress decided to just like our MGs. Everyone is so focused on bitching about something.

To be clear, not calling OP stupid, he is here looking for info. Seeking info is awesome and a good sign of intelligence.

Chill. Let it die. Thread was done about 3 posts in.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

We have a documented charge for NFA violation for a guy with a rubber foot stuck on the tube of his AR pistol so it didn't slide around in his safe. AFT said it was a stock. If they think they can get away with it they will try. They got away with Ruby ridge and Waco that should show what they are OK with.

Now, little Charlie needs to cool it. Not cool to be an asshole over minute details especially when trying to call out and hassle other members of the forum. Most people are generally stupid or malinformed. We had a local kid take an AK he was trying to make FA to our local SOT and ask if he could make it run. Yeah, that level of dumb/malinformed. SOT ended up getting a parts kit out of it and the kid lost the rifle and learned a couple things he should have researched before getting to work.


Would be neat if everyone could actually read respondses before making replies. Makes me think I'm back on the general discussion on ARFCOM. Yeah, it's that level.


Long ago we all came to the same conclusion that open bolts prior to the ban are OK and CURRENTLY legal. Enjoy them. Shoot them. Share them. We all agree this could change tomorrow if Congress decided to just like our MGs. Everyone is so focused on bitching about something.

To be clear, not calling OP stupid, he is here looking for info. Seeking info is awesome and a good sign of intelligence.

Chill. Let it die. Thread was done about 3 posts in.

Idk man.. I agree with Charlie.. I’m tired of seeing this “your open bolt might be a federal felony” post on every M10 SAP thread myself. Not a good look for the guns we love to collect.. if the ATF has has been telling us we are allowed to have it for the last 40 some odd years (longer than I’ve even been alive) why argue with that, or give them any ideas??

That said, I recall the rubber foot post that you mentioned here, when you agreed with A&S about “constructive possession of an SBR” for simply owning a MAC SMG buttstock under the same roof as a MAC semi auto pistol. Another highly unusual, extremely improbable and nuanced isolated incident of government overreach and legal gymnastics, likely due to other unspoken extenuating factors that placed the police or feds in the persons home in the first place to even discover the guys bizarre rubber cane foot “buttstock” that he had permanently installed on his pistol “to keep it from moving in the safe”. (I better go remove all the makeshift rubber cane foot stocks from my guns now…)


I don’t mind the occasional civil argument on this board, makes it more interesting than just another boring thread about the newest LAGE accessory… but this whole “open bolt semi autos are potentially illegal stuff” reads like geriatric fudd ramblings about a gun that has been off the governments radar since Reagan was president.

If they somehow make them illegal, I have a feeling everything else is gonna be included in that move as well. I highly doubt that the feds are gonna suddenly decide to specifically change a ruling on a firearm that hasn’t been an issue on the streets since the days of Pablo Escobar and hasn’t even been manufactured since 1981.

Most of the criminal element in this country can’t even afford (or find) an open bolt semi auto pistol anymore. They’re too busy running around with easy to obtain $500 fully auto Glocks that some nerd printed in his moms basement and traded to local gang members to fuel his fentanyl addiction… times have changed.

Let’s not forget the new super safeties and FRTs… I think the ATF’s focus has changed drastically since the old days of the mass produced $250 open bolt RPB. They have “bigger fish to fry” now.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Okay, I am a Fudd.

Can you buy an open bolt pre November 1, 1982 gun?

Yes.

When the ATF added language to Ruling 82-8 which supposedly “grandfathered” , they went beyond their authority.

Could this issue become a problem for owners of such firearms?

I think so. Others don’t care. There are many owners unaware of this issue. I think owners or more importantly, potential buyers, become aware of this issue. Period.

My issue has been those who say that there is no problem. The Sixth Circuit Court of Appeals has ruled that there is a problem with what the ATF has done.

If you don’t care, great. So why are you saying that there is no problem? The issue exists, whether you care or not.

Scott