SIONICS Type can with SWD H.E. Internals?

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Not sure if this is appropriate to post in this board, thought maybe it would get a little more attention from the MAC people but if it needs to be moved to the suppressors subforum let me know…

Anyway, has anyone here ever tried running the Original MAC/SIONICS cans with the second stage from the SWD H.E. suppressor installed on it instead of the MAC 2nd stage? The parts on the MAC/RPB/SWD cans are all 100% interchangeable and the 2nd stage from the H.E can can be easily attached to the first stage of the original 2 stage cans or even the M11/380 cans… (The original second stage tube on the 380 is obviously a bit shorter than the 9mm H.E. So the first bushing piece and one of the baffles likely wouldn’t fit. It would just be 4 of the cup baffles, but I’m wondering if it would be more effective than the original spirals?)

With the larger 2 stage cans I’m curious if the H.E. Cup baffles would be an improvement over the earlier spirals. It would be missing the 7/8 wipe that goes between the first and second stage on the H.E can but would have the larger first stage for expansion, and then the cup baffles instead of spirals.

I know that some of the suppressor manufacturers replace the old noodle spirals with cups these days so I feel like this could be a viable option with the old cans… not sure how the 4 cup baffles on their own would perform in the 380 can vs the original spirals… but the complete H.E. second stage can be swapped right onto to the full size two stage MAC can without having to remove or replace anything from the second stage tube or alter the original OAL of the can…

the same can be done with the .380 can as well but it would increase the OAL of the .380 can a little bit… if you wanna keep the .380 in its original length, with the original second stage tube, only 4 of the cup baffles and the encapsulator would fit, no bushing piece (not sure what it’s called) and one less cup than the standard 9mm H.E. stack. Has anybody here tried this?? Is this allowed by law? To swap the 2nd stage from one can to another? Or is it like the wipes and other components? and the can must be sent to a manufacturer just to swap the parts from one onto another?

 

[Villafuego]

I've done it ......
Put the "front end" of an HE can on the 1st stage of a Sionics 2-stage 9mm can one day for shits and giggles ...... wasn't really impressed ....was a tad louder than the original 2nd stage with spiral diffusers.

What I did do later, however, was machine a small "clip" in the cups/baffles of the SWD HE can, and it dramatically improved the suppression, both with the original HE 1st stage, and the Sionics 1st stage

I had a 7/8-9 threaded bbl nut made for my Uzi, and regularly shoot it with a .45 Sionics 2-stage can ......and it's plenty quiet. Put the 2nd stage from a 9mm 2-stage can, or the 2nd stage from a 9mm HE can on it (with the clipped baffles), and it's exceptionally quiet.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

I've done it ......
Put the "front end" of an HE can on the 1st stage of a Sionics 2-stage 9mm can one day for shits and giggles ...... wasn't really impressed ....was a tad louder than the original 2nd stage with spiral diffusers.

What I did do later, however, was machine a small "clip" in the cups/baffles of the SWD HE can, and it dramatically improved the suppression, both with the original HE 1st stage, and the Sionics 1st stage

I had a 7/8-9 threaded bbl nut made for my Uzi, and regularly shoot it with a .45 Sionics 2-stage can ......and it's plenty quiet. Put the 2nd stage from a 9mm 2-stage can, or the 2nd stage from a 9mm HE can on it (with the clipped baffles), and it's exceptionally quiet.

There is a business called title II arms that sells 7/8x9 mac thread adapters for the Uzi… I couldn’t think of why.. now it makes perfect sense. When you say you put a “clip” in the baffles, what exactly are you referring to? I’m thinking that the performance of the HE can is maybe a bit less impressive when you eliminate that one extra wipe that seperates the diffuser and the baffle stack…. It has to be there for a reason, by attaching that second stage to a “2 stage” can you are eliminating that extra wipe, so maybe the H.E. Internals just aren’t as effective without it…

 

[slimshady]

"Clipping a baffle" refers to putting a notch or notches in the cone of the baffle where the bullet enters. The theory is as the bullet passes through a baffle the high pressure gas behind it impacts the cone and strips it away from the clear path through the center hole, essentially because the bullet is plugging that hole for a millisecond or three. Adding a notch there creates turbulence and cross flow, causing the jet of gas passing down the center path to be disrupted after the bullet has passed. Shorter suppressors and higher gas pressures tend to make the most of the clipping effect. Google "clipped suppressor baffles" and you can see the different ways it is done.

Wipes are there to essentially act as a "valve" that opens up to allow the full diameter bullet to pass, but then partially closes up again to reduce the flow of gas behind it. The volume of gas remains the same, but the flow is reduced so it takes longer to empty out. Depending on baffle design, this might help, hurt, or have no change on their efficiency.

 

[Loco]

Correct. Similar result as wipes, but with no parts to replace from normal wear.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

"Clipping a baffle" refers to putting a notch or notches in the cone of the baffle where the bullet enters. The theory is as the bullet passes through a baffle the high pressure gas behind it impacts the cone and strips it away from the clear path through the center hole, essentially because the bullet is plugging that hole for a millisecond or three. Adding a notch there creates turbulence and cross flow, causing the jet of gas passing down the center path to be disrupted after the bullet has passed. Shorter suppressors and higher gas pressures tend to make the most of the clipping effect. Google "clipped suppressor baffles" and you can see the different ways it is done.

Wipes are there to essentially act as a "valve" that opens up to allow the full diameter bullet to pass, but then partially closes up again to reduce the flow of gas behind it. The volume of gas remains the same, but the flow is reduced so it takes longer to empty out. Depending on baffle design, this might help, hurt, or have no change on their efficiency.

Ok yes I am familiar with the notches on the holes in the baffles, I didn’t know it was referred to as “clipping” the baffles, learned something new. I always thought the wipes were just there to create a gas seal around the bullet, so that the diameter of the hole is tight around the bullet, as opposed to firing a 9mm round out of a can with a .45 diameter exit hole which would be totally useless… but the end caps were generic and used on both 9mm and .45 with a large diameter hole, so the wipe is required to reduce the size of the hole down to the diameter of the round and create a seal so that the gases don’t all escape out the muzzle end of the can. I think that might be what you are describing by referring to it as a “valve”. That said I always thought the wipe served its purpose in the end cap by reducing the size of the exit hole diameter to that of the bullet itself.. so what does purpose does the wipe in the first stage of the H.E. Can serve? Traps more gasses into the diffuser stage of the can? preventing less gas from entering the second stage?

 

[A&S Conversions]

It is my understanding that wipes and for that matter baffles are not to stop gas flow but to slow gas flow. Specifically the wipe between stages would be to slow the transfer of propellant gasses.

Scott

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

It is my understanding that wipes and for that matter baffles are not to stop gas flow but to slow gas flow. Specifically the wipe between stages would be to slow the transfer of propellant gasses.

Scott

Well yes, obviously it cannot completely halt the flow of gases to the next chamber of the suppressor, but it is clearly there to restrict the amount of gas that travels into the second stage, at least initially… that said I don’t think it’s any more effective than a standard 2 stage that does not have the wipe between the 2 stages. If anything the SWD H.E. Suppressors are less effective than the traditional MAC designs. It is likely that the introduction of the H.E. by SWD was simply for the purpose of cutting costs, as the design required less machining than the previous spiral baffle designs. The majority of SWD’s products were the result of cutting costs and maximizing production.

 

[slimshady]

Ok yes I am familiar with the notches on the holes in the baffles, I didn’t know it was referred to as “clipping” the baffles, learned something new. I always thought the wipes were just there to create a gas seal around the bullet, so that the diameter of the hole is tight around the bullet, as opposed to firing a 9mm round out of a can with a .45 diameter exit hole which would be totally useless… but the end caps were generic and used on both 9mm and .45 with a large diameter hole, so the wipe is required to reduce the size of the hole down to the diameter of the round and create a seal so that the gases don’t all escape out the muzzle end of the can. I think that might be what you are describing by referring to it as a “valve”. That said I always thought the wipe served its purpose in the end cap by reducing the size of the exit hole diameter to that of the bullet itself.. so what does purpose does the wipe in the first stage of the H.E. Can serve? Traps more gasses into the diffuser stage of the can? preventing less gas from entering the second stage?

Most wipes are a rubber material, either with a hole or cross cut into them or the first shot makes the hole. When the bullet hits the wipe and passes through the hole, the rubber stretches to allow the bullet to pass through, then snaps back to the smaller than bullet diameter after it passes. Yes, it seals around the bullet as it passes through, but the main purpose is to slow down the flow of gas through it after the bullet passes, keeping the gas inside the suppressor (or a section of it) longer and slowing the eventual release out the end cap. This is why they wear out, eventually the passage of enough bullets causes the hole to enlarge to bullet size and now you no longer get the reduction in flow.

Once saw a huge Form 1 can on a .22 centerfire rifle being shot, the bullet going supersonic was quite loud. Guy then took it over to a tree, held the muzzle against it, and fired, eliminating the bullet noise. All you heard was a sound like a clap and then a 2-3 second hiss as the gas escaped. He pulled the end cap off and showed me his wipe, it was a 2 inch thick piece of urethane with a tiny hole in it. Once the bullet exited the huge amount of gas inside took that 2-3 seconds to pass through the long tiny hole in the wipe. He said the wipe degraded accuracy to limit it to about a 100 yards, if he was shooting longer range he just popped it out as it sat within the last baffle.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Most wipes are a rubber material, either with a hole or cross cut into them or the first shot makes the hole. When the bullet hits the wipe and passes through the hole, the rubber stretches to allow the bullet to pass through, then snaps back to the smaller than bullet diameter after it passes. Yes, it seals around the bullet as it passes through, but the main purpose is to slow down the flow of gas through it after the bullet passes, keeping the gas inside the suppressor (or a section of it) longer and slowing the eventual release out the end cap. This is why they wear out, eventually the passage of enough bullets causes the hole to enlarge to bullet size and now you no longer get the reduction in flow.

Once saw a huge Form 1 can on a .22 centerfire rifle being shot, the bullet going supersonic was quite loud. Guy then took it over to a tree, held the muzzle against it, and fired, eliminating the bullet noise. All you heard was a sound like a clap and then a 2-3 second hiss as the gas escaped. He pulled the end cap off and showed me his wipe, it was a 2 inch thick piece of urethane with a tiny hole in it. Once the bullet exited the huge amount of gas inside took that 2-3 seconds to pass through the long tiny hole in the wipe. He said the wipe degraded accuracy to limit it to about a 100 yards, if he was shooting longer range he just popped it out as it sat within the last baffle.

I think the original wipes were made of neoprene, newer ones are made of urethane material (lasts longer). I have always felt that the most effective/quiet wipes are those that are just plain solid and are shot through to make the first hole, no hole drilled in them in the first place, no need for a cross cut or X, just blast right through it.

I think what I’m describing here is the same thing you are just in a different wording. The wipe constricts the opening at the end of the gun, preventing all the gas from escaping out the muzzle end. The need for these wipes is the result of the end cap having a massive .75 diameter exit hole that is useless without the wipes to reduce the size of the hole to that of the bullet diameter and prevent all of that extra gas from escaping out the muzzle end of the can. The wipes are effectively creating a gas seal around the bullet as it exits the can to prevent excess gas from escaping around the bullet. Shooting a MAC can without the wipes in the end cap is basically useless, it’s like shooting with a fake suppressor, because of that large diameter exit hole in the end cap.

The “wipeless” end caps for the MAC were simply the same style cap but with a properly sized exit hole for the specified caliber. The standard MAC cans have an exit hole that’s like 3/4 of an inch, all of the cans (380,9,45) used the same exact end cap, the only way that the can was effective between different calibers with the universal MAC end cap was with the wipes reducing the size of the hole down to the diameter of the bullet being fired, to prevent all the gas from escaping around the bullet out the large diameter hole.

The H.E. Cans have an additional wipe installed between the first stage and the second stage. It must be slowing the flow of gases into the second stage of the can, causing more of the gas dispersal to occur in the first stage, which is the same diameter as the second stage on the H.E. The H.E. Also utilized cup baffles instead of spirals in the second stage. The end cap was the same end cap as the earlier MAC 2 stage cans.

 

[slimshady]

I think the original wipes were made of neoprene, newer ones are made of urethane material (lasts longer). I have always felt that the most effective/quiet wipes are those that are just plain solid and are shot through to make the first hole, no hole drilled in them in the first place, no need for a cross cut or X, just blast right through it.

I think what I’m describing here is the same thing you are just in a different wording. The wipe constricts the opening at the end of the gun, preventing all the gas from escaping out the muzzle end. The need for these wipes is the result of the end cap having a massive .75 diameter exit hole that is useless without the wipes to reduce the size of the hole to that of the bullet diameter and prevent all of that extra gas from escaping out the muzzle end of the can. The wipes are effectively creating a gas seal around the bullet as it exits the can to prevent excess gas from escaping around the bullet. Shooting a MAC can without the wipes in the end cap is basically useless, it’s like shooting with a fake suppressor, because of that large diameter exit hole in the end cap.

The “wipeless” end caps for the MAC were simply the same style cap but with a properly sized exit hole for the specified caliber. The standard MAC cans have an exit hole that’s like 3/4 of an inch, all of the cans (380,9,45) used the same exact end cap, the only way that the can was effective between different calibers with the universal MAC end cap was with the wipes reducing the size of the hole down to the diameter of the bullet being fired, to prevent all the gas from escaping around the bullet out the large diameter hole.

The H.E. Cans have an additional wipe installed between the first stage and the second stage. It must be slowing the flow of gases into the second stage of the can, causing more of the gas dispersal to occur in the first stage, which is the same diameter as the second stage on the H.E. The H.E. Also utilized cup baffles instead of spirals in the second stage. The end cap was the same end cap as the earlier MAC 2 stage cans.

Wipes don't seal once the bullet has passed through, there is still a hole present and the gas exits through it. The amount of time the bullet spends in the wipe, effectively plugging it off and preventing gas from exiting around the bullet is measured in milliseconds. The amount of time the bullet has passed through but the pressure behind it is still venting is much longer.

What the wipe does is allow a smaller than bore diameter hole to be made that restricts the flow of gas, but still allows the bullet to pass through. More efficient than a hole sized to clear the bullet with a safety margin to avoid a strike.

If it was a mechanical system, think of it as the F-stop aperture iris in a camera. Turning the ring opens and closes the iris, allowing more or less light through as the hole size changes. Now mount it on a suppressor with a fast control system. As the gun is fired, the iris is almost closed until the bullet reaches it, at that instant it snaps open to exactly the diameter of the bullet, allowing it to pass through unimpeded. As it clears the iris, it again snaps almost closed, slowing down the release of the gas through the smaller hole.

Wipes are worn out once the friction of the bullet passing through opens them up to the bullet diameter or just a bit larger. At that point they no longer restrict the flow and sound level gradually increases as the hole enlarges.

If you replaced the wipe in the .75 hole endcap with a plain flat washer of the proper size to just allow the bullet to pass through without touching, you would have the same sound as shooting with a worn out wipe. Most of the wipeless endcaps I have seen on suppressors are thicker than the wipe, and usually have a cone or "K" baffle type shape to help strip away that last little bit of gas from the central jet. But the wipe designs, all else being equal, are almost always quieter due to this restriction. The maintenance issues required by wipes are why the wipeless designs are popular in the US, along with better accuracy. In places where suppressors (and parts) are not highly regulated, wipes are more popular as having spares to swap in at a few cents each causes no legal ramifications like it does here, and greatly increases efficiency..

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Wipes don't seal once the bullet has passed through, there is still a hole present and the gas exits through it. The amount of time the bullet spends in the wipe, effectively plugging it off and preventing gas from exiting around the bullet is measured in milliseconds. The amount of time the bullet has passed through but the pressure behind it is still venting is much longer.

What the wipe does is allow a smaller than bore diameter hole to be made that restricts the flow of gas, but still allows the bullet to pass through. More efficient than a hole sized to clear the bullet with a safety margin to avoid a strike.

If it was a mechanical system, think of it as the F-stop aperture iris in a camera. Turning the ring opens and closes the iris, allowing more or less light through as the hole size changes. Now mount it on a suppressor with a fast control system. As the gun is fired, the iris is almost closed until the bullet reaches it, at that instant it snaps open to exactly the diameter of the bullet, allowing it to pass through unimpeded. As it clears the iris, it again snaps almost closed, slowing down the release of the gas through the smaller hole.

Wipes are worn out once the friction of the bullet passing through opens them up to the bullet diameter or just a bit larger. At that point they no longer restrict the flow and sound level gradually increases as the hole enlarges.

If you replaced the wipe in the .75 hole endcap with a plain flat washer of the proper size to just allow the bullet to pass through without touching, you would have the same sound as shooting with a worn out wipe. Most of the wipeless endcaps I have seen on suppressors are thicker than the wipe, and usually have a cone or "K" baffle type shape to help strip away that last little bit of gas from the central jet. But the wipe designs, all else being equal, are almost always quieter due to this restriction. The maintenance issues required by wipes are why the wipeless designs are popular in the US, along with better accuracy. In places where suppressors (and parts) are not highly regulated, wipes are more popular as having spares to swap in at a few cents each causes no legal ramifications like it does here, and greatly increases efficiency..

Nobody is saying that they close up and create a complete “seal” with no hole in them…. How would the can handle the built up pressure if it doesn’t escape at all with magical wipes that seal shut in between each round… man you are so desperate to tell me I’m wrong here… I never implied this in the slightest… 🙄

I am saying they form a seal around the bullet itself AS IT PASSES THROUGH…

“creates a seal around the bullet it is exiting the can to prevent excess gas from escaping around the bullet”

very very simple concept… obviously the nearly half inch diameter hole in the damn wipe doesn’t magically slam shut behind the round every single time the bullet passes all the way through. It’s a seal AROUND THE BULLET…. As it passes through.. Not after it has passed through and exited the suppressor completely.. where would the built up gases go? Just store themselves inside the can indefinitely? Escape out of the bore of the gun entirely, like a cloud of hot pepper spray in the shooters face? Clearly this isn’t the case….

The classic AWC wipeless cap is literally just a cap with the proper size hole, as are many other caps, and monocore designs with no caps etc.. just a hole that is practically the same exact diameter as the bullet, slightly larger to prevent a baffle strike but as close as they could get without it.. anything larger is too loud… anything smaller is impossible. No K baffle or cone, literally just the same exact thing as the MAC cap with no wipes in it and a smaller diameter exit hole. Not sure about modern tech, im talking about MAC suppressors, the most recent of which was designed in the 80s.

 

[skiboatsp]

So you guys think bullet going thru a rubber or urethane washer is going to seal at pressures up to 21000 psi (Sammi spec) 45 acp

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

So you guys think bullet going thru a rubber or urethane washer is going to seal at pressures up to 21000 psi (Sammi spec) 45 acp

Around the sides of the bullet? Absolutely… it reduces the diameter of the exit hole, which is all it’s intended to do. I don’t know why everybody seems to be completely misinterpreting me when I say the word “seal”… absolutely nobody is implying that any of the gas gets completely sealed inside the suppressor 🙄 of course it exits the can AFTER The bullet… it just doesn’t exit the can AROUND the bullet.. go fire a 9mm round out of a MAC can with no wipe in the end cap, see how it sounds when the 9mm exits the can through a 3/4” hole and all of the gas escapes around the bullet… then fire one through a MAC can with wipes in the end cap and see how it sounds when the 9mm bullet exits the can through a hole that is roughly the same diameter as the bullet itself and none of the gases escape around the bullet, only AFTER it… it doesn’t TRAP the gas inside the can.. it simply slows the gas down and doesn’t allow so much to exit the can at once around the bullet or after the bullet.

Again… The smaller hole created by the wipe creates a seal around the bullet, preventing gas from escaping around the bullet when it is fired, and then creates a smaller exit hole which restricts the amount of gas that can leave the can at once, which slows it down…. This is the simplest concept and I feel like I’m describing it properly yet for some reason everyone seems to think I am saying something completely different that makes no sense…..

 

[skiboatsp]

Now you are really looking rather uninformed. A rubber or urethane wipe is not going to SEAL 21000 psi from escaping from around a bullet traveling thru it.

Yes it will ever so slightly slow down the gases, and it will disrupt the gases, but it will not Seal.

And yes, gas exits around the bullet. A rubber wipe will not seal 21000 psi from escaping from around the bullet.

 

[slimshady]

Nobody is saying that they close up and create a complete “seal” with no hole in them…. How would the can handle the built up pressure if it doesn’t escape at all with magical wipes that seal shut in between each round… man you are so desperate to tell me I’m wrong here… I never implied this in the slightest… 🙄

I am saying they form a seal around the bullet itself AS IT PASSES THROUGH…

“creates a seal around the bullet it is exiting the can to prevent excess gas from escaping around the bullet”

very very simple concept… obviously the nearly half inch diameter hole in the damn wipe doesn’t magically slam shut behind the round every single time the bullet passes all the way through. It’s a seal AROUND THE BULLET…. As it passes through.. Not after it has passed through and exited the suppressor completely.. where would the built up gases go? Just store themselves inside the can indefinitely? Escape out of the bore of the gun entirely, like a cloud of hot pepper spray in the shooters face? Clearly this isn’t the case….

The classic AWC wipeless cap is literally just a cap with the proper size hole, as are many other caps, and monocore designs with no caps etc.. just a hole that is practically the same exact diameter as the bullet, slightly larger to prevent a baffle strike but as close as they could get without it.. anything larger is too loud… anything smaller is impossible. No K baffle or cone, literally just the same exact thing as the MAC cap with no wipes in it and a smaller diameter exit hole. Not sure about modern tech, im talking about MAC suppressors, the most recent of which was designed in the 80s.

What I am saying is the tiny fraction of a second as the bullet passes through the wipe has little affect on the sound reduction created by the wipe, you seem to be saying that it is the main reason a wipe is quieter than a plain hole. Yes, a smaller exit hole is quieter, and the (unworn) wipe provides one even smaller than a 9mm hole.

It is the smaller than bullet diameter hole in the wipe that reduces the exit flow of the pressure behind it after the bullet passes that creates the sound reduction, and once a wipe wears out to bullet diameter it's effectiveness is essentially reduced to the same as having a plain hole endcap with the same diameter hole. That is why they are replaced after XX number of shots if the sound reduction is desired to be maintained. Yes, a worn out wipe is quieter than leaving a 3/4" hole open on the end, but a wipe with a .25 caliber hole in it is quieter than one with a 9mm hole in it, and it's not because the tighter fit seals better against the bullet.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

What I am saying is the tiny fraction of a second as the bullet passes through the wipe has little affect on the sound reduction created by the wipe, you seem to be saying that it is the main reason a wipe is quieter than a plain hole. Yes, a smaller exit hole is quieter, and the (unworn) wipe provides one even smaller than a 9mm hole.

It is the smaller than bullet diameter hole in the wipe that reduces the exit flow of the pressure behind it after the bullet passes that creates the sound reduction, and once a wipe wears out to bullet diameter it's effectiveness is essentially reduced to the same as having a plain hole endcap with the same diameter hole. That is why they are replaced after XX number of shots if the sound reduction is desired to be maintained. Yes, a worn out wipe is quieter than leaving a 3/4" hole open on the end, but a wipe with a .25 caliber hole in it is quieter than one with a 9mm hole in it, and it's not because the tighter fit seals better against the bullet.

Dude please just stop already... I think I made it VERY clear that I am talking about the diameter of the exit hole, the hole is so small that it is literally the same size as the bullet.. so tight around the bullet that it is effectively forming a seal around it as it escapes the can… nobody is implying that “gasses sealed inside the can” are at play here..

when you put something small (the bullet) through an equally as small, if not smaller hole, it tends to form a seal around it because it is so tight… i am gonna continue to safely assume that the amount of gases allowed to escape around or ahead of the bullet with a larger exit hole are going to be the reason that the can would be louder.

It must be doing something to reduce the volume of the can, otherwise any larger bore can, I.E. 45acp, would be significantly louder simply because of the larger bore/exit hole diameter, which is absolutely not the case… as long as the hole is roughly the same size as the round, preventing excess gas from escaping around it and quickly leaving the suppressor instead of being able to dissipate slowly through the baffles.

I personally have found that the quietest results are achieved when the wipe starts off with NO hole and you shoot through it to create the hole, the first few rounds using this method are exceptionally quiet. So the fact that there isn’t a bunch of gas escaping out the muzzle around the projectile, or ahead of it, is certainly making a difference.

again, nobody is claiming that it is quieter because gases are indefinitely “sealed into the can”… you are literally throwing semantics around in these posts just for the sake of arguing. Go away already.

If anybody would actually like to discuss the thread topic, H.E. Internals in a standard MAC can, please, feel free…. I don’t need a lesson on how or why wipes work in a suppressor, or what they are, or what they are made out of. Thanks

 

[slimshady]

As you say, a brand new wipe with no hole is much quieter than one that has had several rounds through it. I think we can both agree this is because the diameter of the new hole is smaller than the bullet, and increases in size with each shot as the rubber wears away, correct? You state this is because the tighter seal against the bullet as it passes through allows less gas to escape around and ahead of the bullet as it passes through. This is also correct, where we disagree is the extent of how much that short event in the cycle of each shot through the can affects the sound.

All I am saying is the amount of gas that can escape around and in front of the bullet as it passes through is way less than the amount of gas that passes through AFTER the bullet passes. It is this gas passing through the smaller than bullet diameter hole left in the new wipe that slows the exit of gas from the can, quieting the shot to a greater extent than through a worn wipe that has a bullet diameter hole in it after many shots.

Obviously the gas is never "sealed inside the can", the wipe is providing a variable diameter exit hole, allowing a bullet to pass through then closing down after it passes. This is what is reducing the bulk of the noise.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

As you say, a brand new wipe with no hole is much quieter than one that has had several rounds through it. I think we can both agree this is because the diameter of the new hole is smaller than the bullet, and increases in size with each shot as the rubber wears away, correct? You state this is because the tighter seal against the bullet as it passes through allows less gas to escape around and ahead of the bullet as it passes through. This is also correct, where we disagree is the extent of how much that short event in the cycle of each shot through the can affects the sound.

All I am saying is the amount of gas that can escape around and in front of the bullet as it passes through is way less than the amount of gas that passes through AFTER the bullet passes. It is this gas passing through the smaller than bullet diameter hole left in the new wipe that slows the exit of gas from the can, quieting the shot to a greater extent than through a worn wipe that has a bullet diameter hole in it after many shots.

Obviously the gas is never "sealed inside the can", the wipe is providing a variable diameter exit hole, allowing a bullet to pass through then closing down after it passes. This is what is reducing the bulk of the noise.

BUT, how does this account for a .45 can still being effective? The exit hole in the .45 can is significantly larger than the hole in a 9mm can… if the size of the hole, and how much gas it allows to escape after the bullet is the biggest factor in sound suppression, then wouldn’t a .45 can be significantly louder than a 9mm can regardless of the size of the bullet being fired through it? Simply because the larger diameter exit hole allows more gas to exit the can more quickly after the bullet than a smaller hole? but the .45 can suppresses the shot just as effectively as a 9mm can, despite the significantly larger hole.

If you were to fire a 9mm round out of a can with a .45 exit hole, it would be stupid loud…. Because so much gas would escape around the bullet itself… but fire a .45 through the same exit hole, and it’s quiet, even though it has the same size exit hole allowing the same amount of gas to escape after the bullet.

This leads me to believe that the amount of gas that is escaping around the bullet itself does play a huge role.. if it was simply about how much gas can escape behind the round, then a .45 can would be inherently louder no matter what, despite the larger round, simply because the exit hole is larger and so much more gas is able to escape after the round…

being as a .45 can suppresses the .45 round just as effectively as a 9mm can suppresses a 9mm round, the amount of gas that can escape after the round clearly isn’t as important as how much can escape around it. At least that’s how it seems to me anyway… I understand that it is only a millisecond, but when you’re dealing with projectiles that are traveling thousands of feet per second, with gas expansion that occurs in fractions of a second, a millisecond counts.

 

[slimshady]

Apples and oranges, wipe and wipeless designs. Many folks buy a .45 can and use it on their 9mms also, depending on the particular suppressor, they can be almost as quiet regardless of caliber. Makes it a "universal" instead of needing multiple suppressors. Note how some 9mm cans also say they are rated for subsonic .300 blackout, which much like the 9 through a .45, the smaller .30 caliber blackout bullet is not going to block as much gas.

A wipeless can is designed to operate without a wipe, modern tech has allowed baffles to be more efficient than some of the past designs that used wipes to get the sound to an acceptable level. Used to be the baffle hole for the bullet passage needed to be as close to bore size as possible, making the baffle more efficient because less gas leaked by during the bullet passing through, diverting more gas into the inner workings of each baffle. Modern baffles work the gas much more efficiently without the need for such a tight fit, which also lessens the chance of a baffle strike. Note the clipping of some baffles as mentioned above, this diverts the column of gas behind the bullet away from the central passageway, resulting in less flow out the end after the bullet has exited. Different method, same end result.

Wipes were an effective means of reducing sound, but with the legal aspects of silencers in the US, mainly a wipe is not just a disk of rubber but is a "silencer part" that cannot be kept as a spare part or made on demand by anyone but an SOT, their use is not desirable for a civilian model suppressor. Hence the lack of wipes in modern suppressors.

However, if you add a wipe to a wipeless can, it becomes even quieter. Because of the even further reduction of gas flow through the smaller than bore diameter opening in a fresh wipe.