South African R series of weapons information thread (lots of pictures)
- Thread starter mrf2
- Start date
I found this pic of a cut away R4 that was posted on Facebook. I think the picture was taken at a SANDF open day.
Adrian, great to see you back on with more info and congrats on your CR-21.
I was just offered a white one yesterday here in the states as a kit; that came over from SA.
Apparently they are keeping the rest for the next movie.
I hope you are doing well.
That R4 cutaway is currently displayed in my home town at the KKNK arts festival at the SANDF stand. DENEL also has a small tent where it is. I had it in my hands yesterday. Still looks brand new and feels great!
I still say a R4 looks the best in Nutria brown.
I still say a R4 looks the best in Nutria brown.
That R4 cutaway is currently displayed in my home town at the KKNK arts festival at the SANDF stand. DENEL also has a small tent where it is. I had it in my hands yesterday. Still looks brand new and feels great!
I still say a R4 looks the best in Nutria brown.
I still say a R4 looks the best in Nutria brown.
Ady
Well-known member
Thanks Adipose. Congrats on the CR-21 on your side. I have fiddled with one this end, but haven't shot one yet. They must be super scarce your side.
That brown hurts my eyes!
I am house friends with a koevoet member since I was 6 years old. His wife was also a Captain in the police and was my commander for a few years. Im in the SA police as well. He told me allot of their R5 rifles were brown also. With a few fold up stock FN rifles floating around also. There is also a chapter that features him in the book "koevoet" by Jim Hooper.
I do own a FN para rifle and I have just became a LM5 richer also.
Will post pics tomorrow.
I do own a FN para rifle and I have just became a LM5 richer also.
Will post pics tomorrow.
Walter, congrats on your LM5. Please post pics!
The Koevoet photo here is what inspired me to paint my R5 brown.
It is a bad ass photo showing the R5's with 50 round mags ready to rock n roll in the Casspir vechicle.
Like the PKM's also; as I have shot those in full auto.
Attachments
Seems like i will become a very active member here on this forum. Long story short.
I was actaully going to buy a Galil SAR about 2 years ago due to the price of LM rifles going up north.....
So I ended up buying a FN FAL instead. i did in the meantime stock up on parts for my LM that I purchased from some auction sites online as well as arms and fair auctions locally. Well, I had a friend in the city where these auction take place grab me all the items to stock up with. So I sold most of the LM items still have a few odds and ends lying in a box somewhere in the garage.
I did manage to import some FN parts to convert my FN into a fold up stock. I did source some parts locally here in SA also. I did not use DSA parts in my FN para conversion. Although I had some DSA parts I never ended up using them.
So my plans to get a LM rifle actually went out the window. In fact the initial plan was to get a LM4 but then my mind changed to a brand new Galil SAR which I was suppose to buy here in SA. Still in its grease and boxed. I let that flew by and opted for the FN rather.
So a while back the dreaded LM virus started to infect me seriously that my Doctor almost booked me off sick.....
A beautiful LIW Vektor LM5 passed me by and there was no way in hell i was going to let it slip through my fingers.
So I too the plunge. I had so many FN para parts enough to convert another rifle to para spec and sold it. Together with a few other items also. In fact I still need a few more bucks but the worst is over. Its bonus month end of April so the outstanding should be cleared.
This LM5 is owned by a friend and is now mine. The foregrip on the photos is unknow to me but I will be selling it together with the pistolgrip. As I want the LM5 as standard as can be. The flash hider still belongs to my friend as he also has a LM6 and will be putting it onto his LM6. All the original LM5 parts he still has. I am not sure what the value of the foregrip and pistol grip is but I will not be needing it.
Some photos:
Hopefully soon it will be in my safe after the license application that will hopefully be successful.
I was actaully going to buy a Galil SAR about 2 years ago due to the price of LM rifles going up north.....
So I ended up buying a FN FAL instead. i did in the meantime stock up on parts for my LM that I purchased from some auction sites online as well as arms and fair auctions locally. Well, I had a friend in the city where these auction take place grab me all the items to stock up with. So I sold most of the LM items still have a few odds and ends lying in a box somewhere in the garage.
I did manage to import some FN parts to convert my FN into a fold up stock. I did source some parts locally here in SA also. I did not use DSA parts in my FN para conversion. Although I had some DSA parts I never ended up using them.
So my plans to get a LM rifle actually went out the window. In fact the initial plan was to get a LM4 but then my mind changed to a brand new Galil SAR which I was suppose to buy here in SA. Still in its grease and boxed. I let that flew by and opted for the FN rather.
So a while back the dreaded LM virus started to infect me seriously that my Doctor almost booked me off sick.....
A beautiful LIW Vektor LM5 passed me by and there was no way in hell i was going to let it slip through my fingers.
So I too the plunge. I had so many FN para parts enough to convert another rifle to para spec and sold it. Together with a few other items also. In fact I still need a few more bucks but the worst is over. Its bonus month end of April so the outstanding should be cleared.
This LM5 is owned by a friend and is now mine. The foregrip on the photos is unknow to me but I will be selling it together with the pistolgrip. As I want the LM5 as standard as can be. The flash hider still belongs to my friend as he also has a LM6 and will be putting it onto his LM6. All the original LM5 parts he still has. I am not sure what the value of the foregrip and pistol grip is but I will not be needing it.
Some photos:
Hopefully soon it will be in my safe after the license application that will hopefully be successful.
lcastillo
Well-known member
Wildcard I know this is a sore subject. Are you able to get any SADF surplus ammunition in the civilian market yet? I heard they would rather push pallets of SADF 5.56 and .308WIN off ships into the ocean than let civilians buy it in SA? What is the best ammunition available to you as a SA shooter? That is a LIW LM-5 you are buying true? I see the springbok (hope I spelled that right) proof house mark next to the original oval "P" proof from the Denel factory is that correct for a LIW made LM-5? I also saw the last 4 of the serial number on the rear sight base on the top cover. The later Nobleteq built LM-5 no longer have the serial on the top cover rear sight base? Thanks Lou
Lovely LM5 Wildcard and a LIW made one to boot - congratulations. Awesome!! I also agree you need to get the front guard and grip back to original.
I wonder if I have seen that one before. Somebody drilled a small recess into the "praat Afrikaans" position - I wonder why, as it still shoots semi auto in that position? Can you show a few pics of the internals? What's the serial number sequence - also looks like C01XXX? Mine is C012XX, so a bit earlier than yours.
I wonder if I have seen that one before. Somebody drilled a small recess into the "praat Afrikaans" position - I wonder why, as it still shoots semi auto in that position? Can you show a few pics of the internals? What's the serial number sequence - also looks like C01XXX? Mine is C012XX, so a bit earlier than yours.
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Lou, we get a lot of ex-military surplus ammo, mostly Norinco. They are loaded very hot, but most of the SADF ammo is loaded even hotter. We also get PMP very cheap at about 44cents (US) per round - these are loaded within Somchem specs, so mostly 23-24gr. The surplus ammo brass is great with most of them boxer primed, so you can reload. But, they are so cheap I don't even bother reloading.
I also loaded some Norinco brass with the Barnes TSX bullets and used them for shooting wild pigs on our farm. They worked excellent and I was super impressed with their ability to keep the bullet bonded and provide a good wound cavity.
One thing about the LMs, Galils and ARs is that we will always have a good supply of bulk ammo, as long as they are used by world armed forces.
Re the story of ammo being dumped rather than sold, I don't know. I have never been able to confirm that and still have a number of friends in the SAAF from my flying days.
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Lou, we get a lot of ex-military surplus ammo, mostly Norinco. They are loaded very hot. For example, the Indian batch I'm shooting now is loaded 26.1gr for their FMJ with 55gr bullets. Most of the SADF ammo is loaded even hotter - I measured some 83' ones and they were loaded 26.5gr. We also get PMP very cheap at about 44cents (US) per round - these are loaded within Somchem specs, so mostly 23-24gr. The surplus ammo brass is great with most of them boxer primed, so you can reload. But, they are so cheap I don't even bother reloading.
I also loaded some Norinco brass with the Barnes TSX bullets and used them for shooting wild pigs on our farm. They worked excellent and I was super impressed with their ability to keep the bullet bonded and provide a good wound cavity.
One thing about the LMs, Galils and ARs is that we will always have a good supply of bulk ammo, as long as they are used by world armed forces.
Re the story of ammo being dumped rather than sold, I don't know. I have never been able to confirm that and still have a number of friends in the SAAF from my flying days.
10-15 years ago when the surplus SA ammo was being sold Stateside super cheap, a story came out in the main street press about how the Gov't of SA has simply sold the ammo with the understanding that it was being sold for scrap metal. They were "shocked" it was being sold to civilians.
Thanks for replies!
Yes its a Lyttleton made LM5. Serial number is C017xx
I have handled a Nobleteq built LM5 before and it was not bad it also had the LM5 engraving on the receiver. But it was 3 years ago and i did pay to much attention on detail though. This LM5 that I got is one of the earlier made ones purely for my collection theme.
I now people that have bought ex SADF surplus 7.62x51 rounds by some gunshops in Johannesburg at about R4.80 a round. Not sure in US currency how much it will be. If I remember correctly it was a 1983 batch. i managed to secure some for my FN i just need to get the ammo to me as I live 1400km away from Johannesburg. My friend who also owns a FN might come down this side for a vacation and will bring it with for me. I do not like the other surplus rounds especially the norinco steel cased ones. Thy shall not feed a FAL rifle steel cased ammo.
i have seen a FN at Andy Fuller in Knysna South Africa blown up due to that ammo. Steel cased ammo chews extractors and are extremely hot. This makes me even more scared to use steel cased ammo in my LM. I will stick to brass.
i have managed to reload about 300 berdan brass after getting some berdan primers here in SA from Safari n outdoor. a mission but possible.
556 ammo boxer PMP are fairly affordable and there are allot of specials on them at times for about R5 a round.
Once my LM5 arrives at my dealer i will take more photos. And of the internals also. My dealer is in my town and they have a range on site so at least i can go and shoot while i am waiting for the license.
Yes its a Lyttleton made LM5. Serial number is C017xx
I have handled a Nobleteq built LM5 before and it was not bad it also had the LM5 engraving on the receiver. But it was 3 years ago and i did pay to much attention on detail though. This LM5 that I got is one of the earlier made ones purely for my collection theme.
I now people that have bought ex SADF surplus 7.62x51 rounds by some gunshops in Johannesburg at about R4.80 a round. Not sure in US currency how much it will be. If I remember correctly it was a 1983 batch. i managed to secure some for my FN i just need to get the ammo to me as I live 1400km away from Johannesburg. My friend who also owns a FN might come down this side for a vacation and will bring it with for me. I do not like the other surplus rounds especially the norinco steel cased ones. Thy shall not feed a FAL rifle steel cased ammo.
i have seen a FN at Andy Fuller in Knysna South Africa blown up due to that ammo. Steel cased ammo chews extractors and are extremely hot. This makes me even more scared to use steel cased ammo in my LM. I will stick to brass.
i have managed to reload about 300 berdan brass after getting some berdan primers here in SA from Safari n outdoor. a mission but possible.
556 ammo boxer PMP are fairly affordable and there are allot of specials on them at times for about R5 a round.
Once my LM5 arrives at my dealer i will take more photos. And of the internals also. My dealer is in my town and they have a range on site so at least i can go and shoot while i am waiting for the license.
hagar
Well-known member
Baie netjies!:marines
But get rid of that ugly muzzle brake, I don't know why people would put such a monstrosity on a perfectly good rifle!:slap
And the SA ammo has an interesting story...:devil
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (Reuters) -- South Africa's state arms agency Armscor sold hundreds of millions of rounds of small arms ammunition into the open market in conflict with government policy, Business Day newspaper said on Wednesday.
The newspaper said a secret forensic report in 2005 showed Armscor had sold ammunition for AK-47, R-4 and R-5 rifles to Industrie Spreewerk Lubben in Germany "ostensibly for destruction and onward sale to companies in the U.S.".
"(This) has seen the U.S. market flooded with military and police surplus ammunition from South Africa. Apparently the ammunition is openly advertised on the Internet," the newspaper said, citing a copy of the report.
Armscor was not immediately available for comment.
The agency, formed as part of the secretive military apparatus of apartheid-ruled South Africa, vowed to become more transparent with the advent of multi-racial democracy in 1994.
Business Day said the ammunition sales could damage South Africa's reputation as a leader of global efforts to crack down on small arms proliferation.
"The report contains a litany of allegations over Armscor officials exporting ammunition on the basis of expired end-user certificates for Guyana," it said, adding that it also showed Armscor officials bypassing South Africa's National Conventional Arms Control Committee.
The newspaper said the November 2005 report by First Consulting also detailed a breach of national security in the export of Ratel infantry assault vehicles with top-secret codes and algorithms in place.
It said in all, there were eight exports of ammunition to Germany between 1998-2005 in contravention of a cabinet decision in 1997 that all surplus ammunition should be destroyed.
But get rid of that ugly muzzle brake, I don't know why people would put such a monstrosity on a perfectly good rifle!:slap
And the SA ammo has an interesting story...:devil
JOHANNESBURG, South Africa (Reuters) -- South Africa's state arms agency Armscor sold hundreds of millions of rounds of small arms ammunition into the open market in conflict with government policy, Business Day newspaper said on Wednesday.
The newspaper said a secret forensic report in 2005 showed Armscor had sold ammunition for AK-47, R-4 and R-5 rifles to Industrie Spreewerk Lubben in Germany "ostensibly for destruction and onward sale to companies in the U.S.".
"(This) has seen the U.S. market flooded with military and police surplus ammunition from South Africa. Apparently the ammunition is openly advertised on the Internet," the newspaper said, citing a copy of the report.
Armscor was not immediately available for comment.
The agency, formed as part of the secretive military apparatus of apartheid-ruled South Africa, vowed to become more transparent with the advent of multi-racial democracy in 1994.
Business Day said the ammunition sales could damage South Africa's reputation as a leader of global efforts to crack down on small arms proliferation.
"The report contains a litany of allegations over Armscor officials exporting ammunition on the basis of expired end-user certificates for Guyana," it said, adding that it also showed Armscor officials bypassing South Africa's National Conventional Arms Control Committee.
The newspaper said the November 2005 report by First Consulting also detailed a breach of national security in the export of Ratel infantry assault vehicles with top-secret codes and algorithms in place.
It said in all, there were eight exports of ammunition to Germany between 1998-2005 in contravention of a cabinet decision in 1997 that all surplus ammunition should be destroyed.
Ady
Well-known member
I stuck a JPE comp onto my LM5 sourced from a very kind forum member. It makes a world of difference, but she barks.
On a side note. One third of all 303 ammunition used by the Allied forces during WW2 was produced in SA. SA has a very rich firearms industry that goes way back.
On a side note. One third of all 303 ammunition used by the Allied forces during WW2 was produced in SA. SA has a very rich firearms industry that goes way back.
hagar
Well-known member
There is one on Gunbroker for $195 and $11 shipping...
I'll keep my eyes open for you, but expect to pay at least $75 or more. Don't have one myself, even the 35 round mags are too long for my taste.
I'll keep my eyes open for you, but expect to pay at least $75 or more. Don't have one myself, even the 35 round mags are too long for my taste.
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