Subgun ordinance 22 conversion question

[emrisg]

If this is a dumb question I am sorry. I just got my Uzi and it runs perfect with 9mm. With the 22 kit it only runs on full auto. Is it supposed to run in semi? Gun is in spec because it just got a total overhaul by Richard at BWE.

PS Richard thanks for making my Uzi look and function like new.

 

[Surly]

If this is a dumb question I am sorry. I just got my Uzi and it runs perfect with 9mm. With the 22 kit it only runs on full auto. Is it supposed to run in semi? Gun is in spec because it just got a total overhaul by Richard at BWE.

PS Richard thanks for making my Uzi look and function like new.

It should run in semi...mine does. Does it run away completely, do bursts or what?

 

[Philip]

maybe the recoil spring is too stiff and it's short stroking? the advice I received for a different problem was to clip an inch or two off an extra spring and see if it works a little better.
In any event, at least it runs!

 

[arch stanton]

Why dont you send me an email or give me a call

 

[BWE Firearms]

Emris,

Whats it doing or not doing in semi auto?

 

[Stout]

Mine does the same thing. The gun runs 9mm in semi and full just fine. The 22 kit only runs in full. When you pull the trigger in semi it just goes click and the bolt does not move. I have no idea why this is happening. I checked the angle of the cuts on the bottom of the 22 bolt and they seem the same as the ones on 9mm bolt. It would be great if I could get it to run semi.

Mine is a RR model B that uses a 10" semi barrel. I had read earlier about a disconnector stop difference in the lowers, but I haven't looked at mine just yet. I don't know if that would or not.

 

[RoverDave]

Arch, would be interested to know if you've heard of this behavior before with the .22 kits and what causes it.

 

[emrisg]

Just like stout said it won't run with the 22 conversion in semi. Bolt won't move forward at all. In 9 mm it runs like a sewing machine. I will give Arch a call.

22 kit is nice and runs great in auto. I got 2 full clips to run yesterday.

 

[arch stanton]

Arch, would be interested to know if you've heard of this behavior before with the .22 kits and what causes it.

This is the first I have heard of any kits that wont run in semi auto. So something on the bolt carrier or sear pads is hanging it up?? Funny how it will drop in FA but not in Semi. Has anyone tried helping it forward by hand with no rounds in the mag when the selector is in semi? You could place a spent case in the barrel if your worrried about it slamming forward.

Joe

 

[Stout]

I've done it. No joy.

The only thing that seems to let the bolt move forward in semi is to pull the trigger with top cover up quit a bit. I don't know why the 9mm works fine. I'll get out the dial caliper and see if there are any dimensional differences, but I think I've done that and the were good.

 

[arch stanton]

Whats baffling is it will release in FA postion and not in semi it is the same function except the sear pads come back up in semi after being fired to keep the bolt back until you pull the trigger again. HMMMMMMMM

 

[Stout]

I seem to recall that the left and right ramps on the bottom of the 22 bolt are not parallel. One is set further back than the other. And they are steel screwed into the aluminum bolt. I'll try removing one side to see if that helps. I hope I remember this correctly..

edit: They are the same length and only one is steel. But they are not parallel. The steel one is forward a few tenths or so. The left side is aluminum and I can see marking on the front slope that would hit the sear.

Edit again: I just changed top covers and the problem has changed. It now takes 2 pulls of the trigger in semi to get the bolt to move forward. Sometime 3 and sometimes 1. This is a very loose top cover already. The 9mm bolt still works as designed.

 

[tacdrivrnc]

there is either too much pressure on the sear pads (caused by the bolt/recoil spring) and it is causing the trigger and disconnector to "disconnect" from the sear, or your disconnector and trigger are wore down. Either way, that click you hear is the trigger disconnecting from the sear pad arms as they stay up. It is annoying, but can generally be fixed by swapping trigger parts around (or complete housings), you could also polish the sear pads, and make sure the bolt feet are parallel. You could also compare the pad contact angles between the .22 bolt feet and the 9mm FA bolt. I'd probably concentrate on the difference in the angle...something is causing the sear pads to be held in the up position. The reason it works in FA is because the trigger has more leverage and can overcome the resistance at the sear pads. You would feel a difference in trigger pull between the FA setting in 9mm and the FA setting with the .22 kit.

 

[RoverDave]

I agree. The disconnector is releasing the sear before the sear releases the bolt, so the bolt doesn't go anywhere. Using a top cover with a larger gap allows the bolt to ride up and release from the sear earlier. It can be dangerous if the gap is getting too large since it might permit a run-away condition. It could be due to warn parts, but could be other things as well. If you have a spare lower, swap that out and try it. That would be the quickest check. I wouldn't modify the sear yourself until you exhaust everything else. Make sure the steel insert in the left bolt rail is seated all the way so the bolt isn't taller in that side, which would cause additional binding against the top cover.

What brand gun is it and what kind of 9mm bolt is in it? Is it a surplus IMI open bolt?

 

[Stout]

I have changed the bolt spring in the past with no impact on the 22 bolt issue. I have also compared the dimensions of the 9mm and 22 bolts. The seem to be dead on, except for the stagger in the ramps as I mentioned above. The entire gun has not had 1000 rounds through it but maybe there is an issue between the trigger and sear, although it works fine with the 9mm bolt, which would make me believe the problem lies elsewhere.

With the 22 bolt and in semi, I can feel the bolt move back slightly as the trigger is pulled and rebound at the click as the trigger disconnects from the sear. With the bolt removed, I can see the sear and it does not fully retract into the receiver. It stays up just a bit. I am thinking that the reduced pressure of the bolt spring, because the 22 bolt sits further forward, may not be enough to push the 22 bolt past the partially retraced sear. The 9mm bolt sits further back when charged, which would cause it the compress the bolt spring more and of course have more spring pressure to push past the partially retracted sear as the trigger is pulled. So a bit more ramp the 22 bolt may fix the problem. Or it may make it run in FA all the time. I'll look at more closely tomorrow when I'm not drinking scotch and watching movies with my wife.

 

[Stout]

I agree. The disconnector is releasing the sear before the sear releases the bolt, so the bolt doesn't go anywhere. Using a top cover with a larger gap allows the bolt to ride up and release from the sear earlier. It can be dangerous if the gap is getting too large since it might permit a run-away condition. It could be due to warn parts, but could be other things as well. If you have a spare lower, swap that out and try it. That would be the quickest check. I wouldn't modify the sear yourself until you exhaust everything else. Make sure the steel insert in the left bolt rail is seated all the way so the bolt isn't taller in that side, which would cause additional binding against the top cover.

What brand gun is it and what kind of 9mm bolt is in it? Is it a surplus IMI open bolt?

It's an IMI model B. Action Arms conversion. The bolt is an FN I think. It is flat on the back side with a large slot cut in the spring side through which you can see the spring. The standard IMI bolt that I have works in the gun also.

 

[emrisg]

I tried the same thing as stout and got same results. My gun is an imi model a rr. New imi 9 mm bolt and new Israeli lower with new parts.

 

[TexTenn59]

I ran my Subgun Ordnance 22 kit yesterday, ran perfect in full auto and semi. Using Vector RR UZI. I did use a dedicated coil spring that I had cut a little over 1" of spring off and reinstalled on guide rod, so I cannot say this is a cure to emrisg issue or not. May be worth a try.

 

[emrisg]

I will try it as soon as I get a chance. Thanks for the info.

What purpose does the retainer for the spring on the guide rod serve. I have a spring/rod where the retainer broke but I tried it and the gun still runs with it.

 

[RoverDave]

It works fine without the retainer. It's just there so soldiers have one fewer piece to worry about losing.