Texas MACs

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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You’re saying that 99% of Texas Mac’s were rebuilt by SWD

So they only sold 14 and 1400 frames were acquired by swd

I don’t buy that I own 1 of 14
Clearly the “99%” is hyperbole…


MOST of them. Is that better for you? :rolleyes:

Pretty sure I made it all really clear in my last post… but you wanna hang onto that “99%” comment because you are just so desperate to argue with me for some stupid reason.
 

LawBob

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Clearly the “99%” is hyperbole…


MOST of them. Is that better for you? :rolleyes:

Pretty sure I made it all really clear in my last post… but you wanna hang onto that “99%” comment because you are just so desperate to argue with me for some stupid reason.
It wasn’t at all obvious that was hyperbole in the least.

You could have said “most” but you didn’t. You chose to use 99% and that seemed to me to be clearly in error but nonetheless your sincere belief.
 

A&S Conversions

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At least that I can remember, I can’t say when the last time I noticed a Texas M10 in the original configuration for sale. I also know that Sam has been converting Texas guns for years.

How many original configuration subguns were sold? I don’t know. The few I have seen that were purchased in original configuration, most new owners come to the boards looking for advice. And what are they told? Send it to Sam or someone and have it welded up. In the last 25 years, I can think of two Texas guns with broken spot welds and they were both told to send it to Sam by several members. I also can recall seeing several semi auto guns with broken spot welds given the same advice.

With a market value of around $10k and the fix is several hundred dollars, unless the buyer wants a Texas gun in original configuration, it will most likely get brought to standard configuration, so the owner can shoot it without worrying that the spot welds will let go. So I can’t imagine after all this time, there wouldn’t be many originals left. Werther it is one, two, or five percent of the Texas subguns in original configuration, how many could that be? I can’t imagine anyone could actually say.

Scott
 

MAC MAN

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How many original configuration subguns were sold is a good question. In The Mac Man book list the numbers from 1984,1985,1986 with a total of 2,179 produced. Like you stated most have been reworked. I do know in late 1985 Texas Mac started welding their Frames. But I can only prove this with some semi frames.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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How many original configuration subguns were sold is a good question. In The Mac Man book list the numbers from 1984,1985,1986 with a total of 2,179 produced. Like you stated most have been reworked. I do know in late 1985 Texas Mac started welding their Frames. But I can only prove this with some semi frames.
the majority of the semi frames I’ve seen have proper rear welds, but the early ones have the spot welds just like the SMGs. It seems that by the time they started properly welding the frames, the machine gun production had ceased and as a result, all of the original Texas factory machine guns were done the early way, with the visible spot welds at the rear of the receiver.

To respond to the other comment above.. no it was not my “sincere belief that 99%” of the Texas guns on the market are SWD guns.. I don’t know any exact percentage, I don’t even know exactly how many of the guns were made, but it IS my sincere belief and observation that original leatherwood guns are virtually non-existent on the transferable market and that almost every single Texas marked SMG that pops up is one that was reworked by SWD (or Sam or someone else). If the total number of guns produced was 2,179, and 1400 of those were sold to SWD either as incomplete scoop sections or completed guns, that would leave 779 original Texas guns that actually made it to market in their original configuration. The vast majority of which have been rebuilt over the last few decades by various gunsmiths that have offered this service, from C&S metalwerkes to practical solutions and many other smaller local outfits. I can tell you that over the last few years, I have seen hundreds of Ingram SMGs for sale… many of which were SWD Texas guns, but I can count on one hand the number of original Texas guns I’ve seen pop up.

Your original Texas machine guns are rare, if it weren’t for the bad press they have gotten as shooters, I would say they are valuable as collectors items. I think the Texas guns are very interesting, many of the design changes were concepts that came out during the original GA MAC days, and were ideas that came from Gordon Ingram himself, but they didn’t pan out until leatherwood started his own business and had more creative control over the design. Unfortunately some corners were cut and it was poorly executed.

Just for shits and giggles… let’s assume 10% of those original 779 Texas guns are still original (and that’s probably a high estimate)

That would make about 78 of them still floating around, and I don’t think there’s even that many.
 
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A&S Conversions

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I would think that there would be very few Texas guns in original configuration. How many collectors would be willing to pay close to five figures for such a gun to leave it in original condition? That would be a very advanced collector and IMHO would be a very tiny percentage of M10 purchasers.

Are there any members following this thread who own an original condition Texas M10? I have a welded one with a Uzi magwell conversion. But it was that way when I bought it.

Scott
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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I would think that there would be very few Texas guns in original configuration. How many collectors would be willing to pay close to five figures for such a gun to leave it in original condition? That would be a very advanced collector and IMHO would be a very tiny percentage of M10 purchasers.

Are there any members following this thread who own an original condition Texas M10? I have a welded one with a Uzi magwell conversion. But it was that way when I bought it.

Scott
I think the guy who was giving me a hard time earlier about my “99%” comment has one or 2 original Texas guns. Not sure if they are still in their original condition but from what I understood, they are not rebuilt by SWD and he has 2 of them and that’s where his scrutinization of my estimate arose from.

There is one on GB at the moment, has the original Texas wire stock etc
 

A&S Conversions

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Up until the “Lage revolution” Mac style registered receivers were the absolute bottom of the barrel for transferable machine guns. 25 years ago, when I started to be interested in machine guns and the internet had not yet let the general public know that in most states you could legally own a machine gun, I remember a shooting buddy being all excited about the local deal he made on a M11/NINE for $900 plus the stamp. At the time I think the market value was around $1,200. I asked him why he didn’t save a little longer and buy a Lighting Link or something better? He said that he wanted a machine gun, and it was what he could afford. He said that he was going to keep saving until he could buy something better. When he had some cash, his plan was to sell the M11/NINE and include the money towards buying something better. But the M11/NINE, would give him a machine gun now.

Other than the Mac style RRs being transferable machine guns, I don’t ever remember hearing anyone say anything about Mac style RRs being “collectible”. Just ten years ago, if I would have heard the word “collectible” when referring to an original condition Texas gun, I would have laughed at that choice of words. Would there be a couple of “collectors” interested in an original condition Texas gun? I would imagine there might be a couple, but not many. But just like the other end of the spectrum, the cap and ball revolver carried by captain so-and-so with providence that the revolver was at these specific civil war battles, you don’t want to shoot it, because it is almost a one of a kind item and if damaged by shooting it, would be very difficult to replace. I would think that the market value of an original condition Texas M10 would tend to be below the market value of a RPB double stamp to the vast majority of M10 buyers. If the owner of an original condition Texas gun, wanted to sell it above the market value of a RPB double stamp, how long would it take to find that buyer? I could be wrong, but my opinion is that it might take a very long time. YMMV.

Scott
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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Up until the “Lage revolution” Mac style registered receivers were the absolute bottom of the barrel for transferable machine guns. 25 years ago, when I started to be interested in machine guns and the internet had not yet let the general public know that in most states you could legally own a machine gun, I remember a shooting buddy being all excited about the local deal he made on a M11/NINE for $900 plus the stamp. At the time I think the market value was around $1,200. I asked him why he didn’t save a little longer and buy a Lighting Link or something better? He said that he wanted a machine gun, and it was what he could afford. He said that he was going to keep saving until he could buy something better. When he had some cash, his plan was to sell the M11/NINE and include the money towards buying something better. But the M11/NINE, would give him a machine gun now.

Other than the Mac style RRs being transferable machine guns, I don’t ever remember hearing anyone say anything about Mac style RRs being “collectible”. Just ten years ago, if I would have heard the word “collectible” when referring to an original condition Texas gun, I would have laughed at that choice of words. Would there be a couple of “collectors” interested in an original condition Texas gun? I would imagine there might be a couple, but not many. But just like the other end of the spectrum, the cap and ball revolver carried by captain so-and-so with providence that the revolver was at these specific civil war battles, you don’t want to shoot it, because it is almost a one of a kind item and if damaged by shooting it, would be very difficult to replace. I would think that the market value of an original condition Texas M10 would tend to be below the market value of a RPB double stamp to the vast majority of M10 buyers. If the owner of an original condition Texas gun, wanted to sell it above the market value of a RPB double stamp, how long would it take to find that buyer? I could be wrong, but my opinion is that it might take a very long time. YMMV.

Scott
They would never find that buyer. The original Texas MAC is an interesting curio, and could have some value to a collector of MAC guns (the few that actually exist), and luckily for that collector, they could expect to pay less for that somewhat rare and unusual Texas MAC than they would for any other Ingram gun.

I know of at least 3 die hard Ingram collectors who have been collecting MAC guns since the days when they were considered cheap junk and still sold for less than $500. None of them would pay extra for an all original Texas MAC today, they would expect to pay a lower price for it simply because of its reputation in the MAC world as the “thing that should not be”
 

Landric

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My first MG was an original Texas MAC in .45 ACP, bad welds, Garand style safety, and all. I shot it from 2012 until 2019, then the welds in the rear of the receiver started cracking. I sent it to Sam for a rebuild, so scratch that one off the list of original condition Texas guns. I eventually got a second Texas marked MAC, but it is a SWD completed gun. It had the .45 grip/magwell, but was listed on the form 4 as a 9mm. I figure it probably started out as a .45, but at some point to was transferred as a 9mm and the paperwork stayed that way. Like all the Texas receivers it is marked "Cal 9mm, .45 A. C. P." I had Sam convert it to an Uzi grip because the form 4 said 9mm, and my plan was to shoot it in 9mm most of the time anyway. The Uzi mags are just so much better than any of the other options, especially if one is "stuck" with the .45 ACP magwell. I sold my original Texas MAC. I decided I didn't need two M10s, and I really wanted a Stemple-BRP in Suomi configuration. I am not sorry I sold that M10 to fund the BRP.

The SWD guns have an extra digit at the end of the serial number that is a slightly different font. That was true with my original Texas gun as compared to the SWD, and holds true in pictures I have seen. I suppose it might not be universal. An original Powder Springs MAC is probably more collectable, but the SWD guns are just as good shooters as any of the originals. Mine has also had no problem fitting multiple Lage uppers. I just got my VERSA-10 in .45. Hopefully I will get it to the range this week.
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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My first MG was an original Texas MAC in .45 ACP, bad welds, Garand style safety, and all. I shot it from 2012 until 2019, then the welds in the rear of the receiver started cracking. I sent it to Sam for a rebuild, so scratch that one off the list of original condition Texas guns. I eventually got a second Texas marked MAC, but it is a SWD completed gun. It had the .45 grip/magwell, but was listed on the form 4 as a 9mm. I figure it probably started out as a .45, but at some point to was transferred as a 9mm and the paperwork stayed that way. Like all the Texas receivers it is marked "Cal 9mm, .45 A. C. P." I had Sam convert it to an Uzi grip because the form 4 said 9mm, and my plan was to shoot it in 9mm most of the time anyway. The Uzi mags are just so much better than any of the other options, especially if one is "stuck" with the .45 ACP magwell. I sold my original Texas MAC. I decided I didn't need two M10s, and I really wanted a Stemple-BRP in Suomi configuration. I am not sorry I sold that M10 to fund the BRP.

The SWD guns have an extra digit at the end of the serial number that is a slightly different font. That was true with my original Texas gun as compared to the SWD, and holds true in pictures I have seen. I suppose it might not be universal. An original Powder Springs MAC is probably more collectable, but the SWD guns are just as good shooters as any of the originals. Mine has also had no problem fitting multiple Lage uppers. I just got my VERSA-10 in .45. Hopefully I will get it to the range this week.
The SWD rebuilt Texas guns are nicely done.. as are the SWD rebuilt powder springs guns as well.

I like the finish SWD used. It was black. They used a “pre-black” solution in their parkerizing process, it is a dip that is applied prior to the phosphate to give their parkerized guns that black finish vs the usual gray. It makes the SWD guns fairly easy to identify. The SWD M10 guns were also built with what could be considered the most “state of the art” components for their era. They used what I call their “slab side” machined bolt on most of their M10 builds, it is slightly heavier than the old cast design, uses the same extractor, but is made from machined steel and resembles a flat sided block. It has a tendency to be a little oversized and sometimes sticks and struggles in the older upper receivers, but seems to work fine in the SWD Cobray marked uppers that they used on their rebuilt M10s. They did mostly Texas guns, but also did a few powder springs guns like this and of course the Jersey Arms Works Guns.

Many of the SWD rebuild M10s also had a different buttstock assembly, that they first used on the Jersey Arms M10 commando rebuilds and as a result, it was called the “commando” style stock. It was basically the same thing as the old “alternate” buttstock that was sold by MAC and RPB in the earlier years, a flat fixed butt that didn’t fold. The difference with the SWD version is that they were using salvaged alternate stock bodies that they had already stamped out for the Cobray terminator slam fire shotgun, so it had curved flares on the sides that previously accommodated the round struts on the terminator stock.. the legs/struts were also a bit on the short side with some of the commando stocks.

These were most common on the Jersey rebuilds but have also been seen on Texas guns.

The SWD texas rebuilds are rare in .45acp. All of the advertising I have from SWD for the Texas guns is specifically for “M10/9”, no mention of .45, but examples do exist. It seems the majority were built up with 9mm M10/9 magwells, something the original Texas guns never had, as they were all assembled with .45 magwells and marked with both calibers. The original Texas guns were advertised as “convertibles” and Texas MAC sold the magwell sleeve and upper to convert over to 9mm.

Wayne built them up with 9mm magwells and I believe this is predominantly because he was making the most profit off his zytel 9mm mags. He installed the SWD slab side 9mm bolt in all of those guns and that bolt was specifically built as a single feed bolt for use with the zytel magazines. The zytels have 2 notches on the spine, one for the M11 and the other for the M10, they are a dual purpose magazine and they were very cheap to manufacture. Most of the texas SWD guns came in 9mm and came with a zytel magazine, and would not function properly with double feed mags.


Some ads from SWD for the Texas and Jersey guns. Jersey gun is shown with the Alternate “commando” style stock.

Mind you, the guns shown in the stock photos weren’t always correct in these catalogs, as is the case here.. where a .45 magwell is shown on the “Texas M10/9” that they advertised, but these guns came equipped with a 9mm magazine well only.


The first ad here is from an early 90s MAC (mountain accessories company) catalog. Wayne would hoarde hundreds of machine guns and trickle them out from time to time when he needed some extra capital.
IMG_8496.jpeg


This second and is from the late 80s when SWD first started selling the Texas and Jersey guns.

IMG_8495.jpeg
 
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LawBob

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Up until the “Lage revolution” Mac style registered receivers were the absolute bottom of the barrel for transferable machine guns. 25 years ago, when I started to be interested in machine guns and the internet had not yet let the general public know that in most states you could legally own a machine gun, I remember a shooting buddy being all excited about the local deal he made on a M11/NINE for $900 plus the stamp. At the time I think the market value was around $1,200. I asked him why he didn’t save a little longer and buy a Lighting Link or something better? He said that he wanted a machine gun, and it was what he could afford. He said that he was going to keep saving until he could buy something better. When he had some cash, his plan was to sell the M11/NINE and include the money towards buying something better. But the M11/NINE, would give him a machine gun now.

Other than the Mac style RRs being transferable machine guns, I don’t ever remember hearing anyone say anything about Mac style RRs being “collectible”. Just ten years ago, if I would have heard the word “collectible” when referring to an original condition Texas gun, I would have laughed at that choice of words. Would there be a couple of “collectors” interested in an original condition Texas gun? I would imagine there might be a couple, but not many. But just like the other end of the spectrum, the cap and ball revolver carried by captain so-and-so with providence that the revolver was at these specific civil war battles, you don’t want to shoot it, because it is almost a one of a kind item and if damaged by shooting it, would be very difficult to replace. I would think that the market value of an original condition Texas M10 would tend to be below the market value of a RPB double stamp to the vast majority of M10 buyers. If the owner of an original condition Texas gun, wanted to sell it above the market value of a RPB double stamp, how long would it take to find that buyer? I could be wrong, but my opinion is that it might take a very long time. YMMV.

Scott
I inherited mine from my brother in 2010 and sent it into Sam and had it upgraded to SWD parts, safety, grip etc.

Never looking back.
 

Ken Pierce

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I'm not familiar with a Texas MAC and I'm looking at two Texas MACS, one in 9mm and one in 45acp.

Questions:

1) Are they the same value as an Cobray or Powder Springs M11 or M10;
2) What would you look for during an inspection?
3) Would the LAGE Uppers work on the Texas MACS?

Thank you
I Had one new in box. Most are stamped 45 and 9mm. They will run 9mm with a mag well insert and changing the upper. Practical solutions did a nice job on re working mine. Mine was made by James leatherwood. New in box with papers. Actually a very nice gun and ran great in both calibers. Mine had the funny safety and magwell catch. A very unique gun . Only ran a few hundred rounds thru it . Lowers can be reeled if needed by practical solutions for a very reasonable price.
 

A&S Conversions

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Today, it is very unusual to find a Texas registered receiver that is in original configuration. I have a Texas M10 that had already been gone through. It also had the magwell replaced with an Uzi magwell. Since I also have a RPB in .45 with a Lage dual catch, that one can use original Mac style modified Grease Gun mags or standard USGI spec Grease Gun mags.

The original Texas configuration guns used spot weld tabs that are notorious for the spot weld tabs breaking.

Something to think about, what caliber do you want to shoot most of the time? I actually have two Uzi magwell converted guns. I think that if you mostly want to shoot 9mm, the double stack double feed of the Uzi mags are very reasonable high quality, easily loaded magazine system. By the same token, for shooting .45 ACP, it is hard to beat the Grease Gun mag system.

Pro mag makes a .45 Uzi style after market mags that Practical Solutions sells. There is also a magwell adapter which uses aftermarket 9 mm mags in the Grease gun magwells. Personally I like the USGI Grease gun mags for .45 ACP and Uzi mags for 9 mm.

Scott
 

MitchWerbellsGhost87

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I Had one new in box. Most are stamped 45 and 9mm. They will run 9mm with a mag well insert and changing the upper. Practical solutions did a nice job on re working mine. Mine was made by James leatherwood. New in box with papers. Actually a very nice gun and ran great in both calibers. Mine had the funny safety and magwell catch. A very unique gun . Only ran a few hundred rounds thru it . Lowers can be reeled if needed by practical solutions for a very reasonable price.

Believe it or not, ALL of the Texas receivers were marked 45 and 9mm. The gun was originally marketed by leatherwood as a “convertible” and he never manufactured any receivers with 9mm magwells. Any Texas M10 on the market with a 9mm magwell was either completed by SWD or someone else swapped it out at some point.

Texas MAC offered the usual caliber conversion kits consisting of a 9mm upper receiver assembly and magwell conversion sleeve. I believe the original Texas Stamped magazine release is actually designed in a way that it can be flipped over to use for the different calibers, so that a new mag release didn’t have to be installed to convert over to 9mm.
 

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