The latest NIB M16A2 Carbine - look it over

Battering ram NIB

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He'd still have to fill out the 4473.

I'm one of those you mention that most likely won't jump through the new hoops. I purchased nothing but nfa ever since the proposed rules were being tossed about years ago. I've got most of what I want, except for two things...

did the same thing over the past 10months...bought every NFA item i ever wanted and a mac-10 just becse it was cheap and why not.....now i kinda wish i would have bough a FA AK too, but oh well
 

ScottinTexas

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He'd still have to fill out the 4473.

I'm one of those you mention that most likely won't jump through the new hoops. I purchased nothing but nfa ever since the proposed rules were being tossed about years ago. I've got most of what I want, except for two things...

Likewise I bought about all I can justify and more over the past two years and sped up a couple of things to beat 41P/F - but only because I have 3 other folks on my Trust and didn't want to amend it and or hassle them for the fingerprints. Eventually I'll pick up the one or two things left on the want list but I expect that will be after the Trust vendors figure out how to acceptably move folks on and off with minimal hassle. Already there's a digital fingerprint vending machine that is going to make it easier (if it's secure!).

But I didn't pay stupid prices for anything and if I were the only person on my Trust 41F wouldn't have mattered one bit.
 

Battering ram NIB

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stupid prices are in the eye of the beholder......seems like most have paid a stupid price at some point......all but 1 of mine are selling for thousands more after a few months.......and i believe i was told by others the prices i paid were stupid on all of them.....$70k for a M16 is well past Stupid though for that one guy.....but to him that may be a week of income....and as long as he is happy who cares...he may never sell and always enjoy his 2008 M4 registered as a pre 86 legal gun.
 

secondofangle

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NEO GEO is some kind of video game and console enterprise that was popular in the late 80s and early 90s. It now is collectible and has a cult following. Many items are high dollar collectors items. NEO has been running a NEO GEO forum for more han a decade and has apparently become wealthy as a result. He has not tried to hide this or his identity which can be learned wih a couple of mouse clicks.

Im glad Im not the inly one who thinks that if you have a blank trust, 41P is basically a non-issue, unless u dont wanna be fingerprinted.

NEO seems to be a bright guy. But like many people, bright or not, he refuses to consider let alone internalize feedback, to tragicomedia levels.

Problem is, if any problems ever arise, like the agent he apoke to was overruled (because, for example, NEO did not narrate he concerns in a way hat made obvious what was happening, or suggested the actual receivers are NOS from 86 that were later rollmarked M4) - I worry hat we will never learn about it.

So Im going to just assume these Foobie receivers are contraband for my own purposes. After you shoot it, you wont care what the receiver says so ling as that happy switch works - your A1 receiver will go bang bang bang just as good as one rollmarked TRUMP'S MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN M4 CARBINE
 

root

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that the form 3 indeed matches the firearm: a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Neo's own post on page two above the "plus " marks
LOL and that's the 2nd time he has admitted that that serial # is from 1998

All it's going to take is for someone to make the BATFE aware of that gun and serial # and that gun gets taken by the BATFE

If I were doing what he is ( buying a gun made 12 years after the fact) I WOULD NOT BE posting that kind of info NOR would I be even letting on I was considering it.

And by his own admission and Colt's records that gun is not kosher.
So how many more of those guns are NFG?
I'd wager all of them and once someone gets wind of it they are going to go through all from that PA collection, and maybe a few more colt guns.

Sad really to get lucky enough to find a gun that is 12 years newer then the rest then post it all over the internet like that.
I like others don't care how many times it's slipped through sooner or later it will be caught.

Rich
PS:
secondofangle I'm pretty sure you did the right thing to spend some coin on a lawyer then walk.
 

damcv62

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that the form 3 indeed matches the firearm: a full-auto M4 Commando Enhanced with 4 position selector model R0938 M4/M16A4 Commando HBAR 11.5" HBAR built 1998
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Neo's own post on page two above the "plus " marks
LOL and that's the 2nd time he has admitted that that serial # is from 1998

All it's going to take is for someone to make the BATFE aware of that gun and serial # and that gun gets taken by the BATFE

If I were doing what he is ( buying a gun made 12 years after the fact) I WOULD NOT BE posting that kind of info NOR would I be even letting on I was considering it.

And by his own admission and Colt's records that gun is not kosher.
So how many more of those guns are NFG?
I'd wager all of them and once someone gets wind of it they are going to go through all from that PA collection, and maybe a few more colt guns.

Sad really to get lucky enough to find a gun that is 12 years newer then the rest then post it all over the internet like that.
I like others don't care how many times it's slipped through sooner or later it will be caught.

Rich
PS:
secondofangle I'm pretty sure you did the right thing to spend some coin on a lawyer then walk.

And that's the kicker. He claims that because the ATF has approved the transfer to his dealer that means it's magically "legit". And goes to great lengths to show how his way of thinking is correct, and everyone else is wrong. I mean I'm by no means the end all be all for knowledge on such subjects, but when 10+ people are saying you have a questionable if not out right wrong view on something, I'd take the hint.
 

ScottinTexas

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Well he's not here to defend himself and I should just let it go, but he struck me as a weird cat who was a bit full of himself. And I mean weird. That avatar was just creepy.
 

root

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He's not here by choice, someone there linked this thread in one of the posts and told him to have a look.

Rich
 

TommyGun

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Even if they are legal are guns that are not regular production and really kinda like bootleg made with some exotic roll makes collectors items? It seems that when the guns were coming out and seemed legit people were paying up because they thought they were getting a rare item. To me even though they were made in the Colt factory they are reproductions.
 

Battering ram NIB

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are they reproductions if they are 100% correct in every detail to a m4 made in the 1990's?....or if they are real m4's made in the 1990's and gotten into the registry somehow?

.if somehow now legit and transferable doesnt that make them more rare? there is more than 1 way to look at this....

story is still being written/told on these guns....it will be interesting in 20 years in some future book to learn the real story
 

Captain murrica

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are they reproductions if they are 100% correct in every detail to a m4 made in the 1990's?....or if they are real m4's made in the 1990's and gotten into the registry somehow?

.if somehow now legit and transferable doesnt that make them more rare? there is more than 1 way to look at this....

story is still being written/told on these guns....it will be interesting in 20 years in some future book to learn the real story

Yes it's a reproduction, by your logic every single action army revolver that colt makes would be as valuable as original production guns because they are the same in every way made in a colt factory, and that's just not the case. And a new bastard stamp or rollmark on a new saa wouldn't make it more valuable either imo.
 

ScottinTexas

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Yes it's a reproduction, by your logic every single action army revolver that colt makes would be as valuable as original production guns because they are the same in every way made in a colt factory, and that's just not the case. And a new bastard stamp or rollmark on a new saa wouldn't make it more valuable either imo.

The above is what I have said repeatedly, coming from a collector of US militaria and weapons for 30 years. That some of these are perfect reproductions and made in the same factory confuses folks, but if they are not contemporaneous to the normal production run then they are later reproductions.

That does NOT mean they are worthless. If the are not confiscated by the BATF they are as valuable as any other Colt FA M16 family gun.

Do they command a premium for collectibility? In my opinion, no.

Why? Like many, I view their bastard provenance as a negative. I do not see them as an amazing Holy Grail "how did this get through the system into private hands gosh there are only a handful!!!"

I see it for what it is - a small cabal made these maybe as late as 2004 under highly questionable circumstances, and they did so under the direction on an individual whose motive was just this: recreate for personal profit some convincing rare guns to sell to gullible collectors at a later time. Make no mistake - these are almost certainly custom jobs that went directly to one insider and were never part of any Colt inventory in the normal use of that term. They were commissioned by Mr. Colt to his specs. If we could 'buy' an 1800's Colt SAA serial number - one that was documented destroyed years ago - and commission an exact copy, using that number, then we have the same situation. And no Colt SAA collector would pay a premium for that reproduction.

That these guns physically exist is inarguable.
That they are BATFE approved and legit is an open question. Presently yes. In the future? Unknown.
That some guns are perfect in every way is inarguable.
That some guns are obvious mismatches and never existed except for these midnight specials is inarguable. Like an 1800's vintage Colt SAA with a parkerized finish, some are just bogus.

Unless and until legit paperwork and a matching documented story is publicly available and positive, many otherwise potential buyers will avoid these guns - so any premium is a highly risky gamble.
 

Stottman

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In regards to the ink stamp; In 1995, I was issued a fairly new M-16A2 at Ft.Bragg... S/N 6213499... My team SGT had 498. Neither had ink stamps. The only M16/M4s I I saw with the ink stamp during this time period were the Anniston Army depot specials, which were M16A1 lowers rebuilt into A2s.
 

Villafuego

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Maybe I'll stamp my SP-1 this afternoon.....
SAM_0862.jpg
[/IMG]
 

Battering ram NIB

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In regards to the ink stamp; In 1995, I was issued a fairly new M-16A2 at Ft.Bragg... S/N 6213499... My team SGT had 498. Neither had ink stamps. The only M16/M4s I I saw with the ink stamp during this time period were the Anniston Army depot specials, which were M16A1 lowers rebuilt into A2s.

my local gunshop exmarine said the ink stamp is a legit part of the gun....i assume it comes off easily.........i do not think an ink stamp alone makes a gun legit....since anyone can have one made

with all the claimed NIB M16's i dont think over time anyone will know if they are the real deal or not......only a handful are different colored and newer models...the vast majority of the VA collection look legit and even if they arent 100%, in 20 years there will be no way to know....

i go by color and markings.....if the color is correct and markings are correct it is what it is......if its dark black w/ modern markings or mismatched its not

in 20 years how will you know a M16a1 or a2 US property marked was from this collection or not?
 

ScottinTexas

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Maybe I'll stamp my SP-1 this afternoon.....
SAM_0862.jpg
[/IMG]

Well, if you did it would just "prove" that your SP1 was inspected and accepted into US Military supply chain and it would be worth a lot more than it is now.

Or alternatively it just proves you had a $10 stamp made.
 

secondofangle

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NEO's pre-sample?

Found this in ARFCOM while searching for another topic:

"Pre-sample" is generally only used to describe a machine gun. However, as it encompasses all NFA imported/reimported after November 1968, you can have things like pre-sample SBRs (I'm seeing a few Sig 55x pre-samples out there), suppressors (I'll see one from Europe every now and again), SBSes (I have a 14" Benelli M1 that was imported as a 14" model in my inventory right now), and destructive devices (a standalone 40mm HK AG-C/EGLM comes up every now and again). I haven't seen any pre-sample restricted AOWs, though this isn't to say that they don't exist.

The rule is that only SOTs, LE, and government agencies can have pre-sample restricted stuff. These items transfer without any additional garbage, though- no demonstration letters are needed to transfer once they're in country. (Getting them in country if they're not already here is a different animal, and I know little to nothing about the import process.) The cool thing for SOTs is that any pre-samples in inventory may be kept upon surrendering one's license. Future transfer, though, is tax-due (as you're no longer a licensee- it's free if you still have the SOT) and transfer is restricted to SOTs, LE, and government agencies.

Now, this is THEORY. It normally works, but occasionally ATF screws up and forgets to note the pre-sample restriction in the registry. In the case of that Benelli M1 above, it was part of a massive pile that came from a LE agency. They were all imported as 14" SBSes–– thus restricted as pre-samples. But since the restriction wasn't noted and the purchasing SOT was too lazy to look into their status, they were sold as normal transferable guns for $700+ each or so. Half a year later, ATF noticed their error and sent letters to all owners advising them of the error. All pending transfers were denied. Registered owners where the transfer already went through were given a choice- keep the gun but all future transfers were restricted as pre-samples OR ATF would reverse the transfer and refund the $200.00 transfer tax. IIRC most kept the gun, though there was some grumbling with the SOT regarding whether a price adjustment was appropriate. The dealer's existing stock was all declared pre-samples. I think he lost a lot of money on that deal, and I know he got a lot of ill will out of it.

Any how, I picked mine up for $300.00 on a tax-free F3 from another dealer who bought up some of the original dealer's now-presample stock. Can't beat a Benelli M1 14" for that!

This has also happened with MGs. In some cases, ATF never finds out and the owner has no clue either. Transfers just continue on and on with no one being the wiser. In other cases, ATF finds out gives the registered owner the same choice- keep it and it's a pre-sample or they'll reverse the transfer. I've yet to hear of anybody returning the MG, though I have heard owners ponder suing the seller for the difference in value. (I have never heard of any such suit going past the "bitch-about-it-at-the-bar" stage.) FWIW, ATF never gives an option when they discover it's a post-sample. The transfer is voided and the owner loses the gun.
 

Z06

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Just listed on Sturm for $1,250,000.00 Someone contact NEO. Looks legit.

Seems old Sam registered a 9M series number Jan 1, 1862. Too bad it's only an A1 and not an "M4 Enhanced Super-Operator"!
 
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