The latest NIB M16A2 Carbine - look it over

[wanneroo]

I would imagine if it is a legit, legal registered receiver with the paperwork, then whatever markings people put on them, well big deal as long as it is not represented as something it is not.

And that is the silliness we have been left with thanks to the Hughes Amendment. By not being able to exercise your constitutional right, we now have a situation of orphaned firearms that in order to keep them going they need parts, refinishing, modifications, etc.. Then on top of that you have the paperwork situation of which the ATF doesn't even have a complete grip on and as time goes on memories fade, people die and so on so many of the "stories" in terms of the background of development, manufacturing and modification of any NFA machine gun is lost to history. It will be interesting over the next few decades.

 

[ScottinTexas]

Well I suppose it is feasible to rollmark 'after-the-fact' just about anything. Like an M16 with 'Property of George Washington and the Continental Army'.

In this case then you almost have to assume it may not even be a Colt, despite what the paperwork may say. If the 'M4 Enhanced' is whimsical, maybe the rest is too.

Just so weird.

 

[wanneroo]

Well I suppose it is feasible to rollmark 'after-the-fact' just about anything. Like an M16 with 'Property of George Washington and the Continental Army'.

In this case then you almost have to assume it may not even be a Colt, despite what the paperwork may say. If the 'M4 Enhanced' is whimsical, maybe the rest is too.

Just so weird.

A lot of people will do anything to make a buck. We've seen people doing forgeries with H&K products like the H&K 556 and G3 type rifles, rollmarking them and claiming them as early imports or "government contract overruns".

I think that is why it is great forums exist because a lot of this information needs to be documented. I've already seen many times on forums people reference threads from 10-15 years ago with first hand interesting information.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

And then again the Feds may just come in and confiscate every one of them if they were born too late to be legit.

If so, the last owners will be left out in this game of musical chairs. Kiss your investment good bye.

if they were born too late how did they get into the registry?

if they are fakes they are just old guns redone and remarked and sold as new...rebuilt basically as a new model that never existed

 

[Abacab]

if they were born too late how did they get into the registry?

if they are fakes they are just old guns redone and remarked and sold as new...rebuilt basically as a new model that never existed

The fake remarked scenario is the most plausible.

 

[Battering ram NIB]

problem is its killing values on every NIB M16...while most are legit....no one seems to want one........id like to see the 20% increase the Mac 11 had last month...

 

[ScottinTexas]

The fake remarked scenario is the most plausible.

I tend to agree.

On the other hand, if serial numbers were reused from receivers Colt registered and destroyed or lost then that could be a real problem.

Something to consider - the BATF took great interest in a Colt M614 I bought last year. They did not like how it was described in the registry. They requested clear photos of the rollmarkings and serial number. It took almost 6 months before they approved the transfer to my dealer with the model number and description changed to what they required.

It may or may not be a coincidence this was a Colt AR15/M16 family gun.

That it came from a dealer handling many of these 'rare Colts' may or may not be a coincidence.

 

[secondofangle]

^^^ Now THAT is going to have some dudes aweful nervous depending on when they read it

 

[MG34_Dan]

If there are any questions as to the originality of a Colt firearm, I would highly suggest going over to 'WWW Colt Forum dot com' and discretely asking for some help. There are a couple Colt archivists that hang out over there and I'm sure they can assist you.

On very unusual F/A firearms, I would ask the seller to provide a FOIA response to verify its provenance.

 

[ScottinTexas]

What would be in a FOIA request that wouldn't be on the From 3 or Form 4 that the seller would have?

 

[Abacab]

The roll marking for the Colt manufacturer as well as the finish are dead giveaways that something is amiss.

The XM4 *looks* legit.

 

[MG34_Dan]

What would be in a FOIA request that wouldn't be on the From 3 or Form 4 that the seller would have?

I would always want to see the chain of custody on a high dollar item.

 

[ScottinTexas]

The roll marking for the Colt manufacturer as well as the finish are dead giveaways that something is amiss.

The XM4 *looks* legit.

When did the XM4 appear? 1995?

Obviously one has to know about everything re: Colt M16's before even entertaining buying one of these things.

 

[Abacab]

Wikipedia, not a definitive source, mentions mid 80s on the XM4.

 

[secondofangle]

the FOIA request is infeasible. I submitted one in 2012 , checked in it last year "still pending". So no, you cant as a buyer get anything more than whats on the current F3 F4.

Other ideas?

I paid an NFA lawyer to advise me on some recent purchases

 

[secondofangle]

But suppose you get a FOIA three years after purchase or you send the gun to the ATF firearms investigation lab or whatever its called. Is there precedent for suing your dealer if he knew or should have known he was selling you a foobie?
Should buyers of these guns ask for a dealer letter guaranteeing that they are authentic and not subject to ATF confiscation because of anomalies in their markings or because the receivers may have been manufactured?

 

[ScottinTexas]

I'm no lawyer but my guess is any dealer is going to fall back to the Form 4 / Form 3 they received upon taking possession proof of legitimacy by none other than the BATF. Absent written proof of bad intent the ultimate consumer is going to be out of luck. As mentioned before, I lost a $200 USGI sleeping back to Army inspectors that way; they just came to the house and reclaimed the stolen (unknown to me) bag I bought on ebay from an thief at Fort Collins.

If there are 500 of these Colt Enigma Machines floating around, at $30k each there's at least $15M worth of lawyer fees on the table. What a shitshow this would be. If.

I wonder - has anyone published a slightly redacted image of a Form 4 or Form 3 from the original source? Either from Colt to the Invisible Man, or the Invisible Man to C3 dealer? Probably a LLC or shell company offshore but maybe not.

I need to review my Black Rifle Book II but a quick review of Wikipedia (I know, could be wrong) suggests the M4 development started in 1988, was placed in service in 1994. It would seem an 'Enhanced' version of the M4 made before May 19, 1986 would literally be ahead of its time. Or Colt had dark corners with piles of forgotten registered receivers laying around.

 

[ScottinTexas]

Page 351 and 355 of The Black Rifle show the same exact rollmark with the deeper word 'Division'. So I would say that peculiarity is not a concern.

Page 142-143 of Black Rifle II describes the "M4 Enhanced" version as a dedicated lower with the Robbins 4-position selector. Patent date is 1998, and the receiver in the photo of page 143 is rollmarked "Colt's MFG. Co. Inc.". There are also 4 positions stamped: Safe, Semi, Burst, Auto.

Seems to me some Colt expert can confirm that the M4 Enhanced can be legit or not.

 

[secondofangle]

Is that why Frank in Missouri always says in his gunbroker listings the very odd "according to ATF, this gun....". which is of course a BS thing to say. The ATF forms dont certify anything. And ATF approving a form that ANOTHER PERSON filled out seems pretty meaningless and furthermore ATF can say "we made a mistake". Plenty of precedent for that

 

[damcv62]

I'm no lawyer but my guess is any dealer is going to fall back to the Form 4 / Form 3 they received upon taking possession proof of legitimacy by none other than the BATF. Absent written proof of bad intent the ultimate consumer is going to be out of luck. As mentioned before, I lost a $200 USGI sleeping back to Army inspectors that way; they just came to the house and reclaimed the stolen (unknown to me) bag I bought on ebay from an thief at Fort Collins.

If there are 500 of these Colt Enigma Machines floating around, at $30k each there's at least $15M worth of lawyer fees on the table. What a shitshow this would be. If.

I wonder - has anyone published a slightly redacted image of a Form 4 or Form 3 from the original source? Either from Colt to the Invisible Man, or the Invisible Man to C3 dealer? Probably a LLC or shell company offshore but maybe not.

I need to review my Black Rifle Book II but a quick review of Wikipedia (I know, could be wrong) suggests the M4 development started in 1988, was placed in service in 1994. It would seem an 'Enhanced' version of the M4 made before May 19, 1986 would literally be ahead of its time. Or Colt had dark corners with piles of forgotten registered receivers laying around.

Too much tinfoil. It's not a shell company with an off shore ownership. I have one but I'm not posting it. Just assuring you it is not what you asked.