Update Of The Tenko 10-16 Project

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Sincere question: with all of the other great options available, is anyone seriously asking for — or clamoring for — this upper to the degree that it’s worth going through all of this?

I know that sometimes with these kinds of endeavors it can be hard to give up after investing so much time and energy and $$ into it…


that said, a lot has changed since this idea was first dreamt up.

Obviously the LAGE 5.56 uppers are a huge game changer.. but even those are probably going to be a bit less popular now with the FRTs and super safeties growing in popularity. A lot of guys in recent years bought up MAC registered receivers for the sole purpose of attaching a 5.56mm LAGE to it, in an effort to scratch that full auto 5.56mm M16 itch without having to invest 30k or more in a genuine transferable m16..

But now we have the FRTs and super safeties, allowing anyone to have a select fire AR-15, for less than a grand, and without the intrusive paperwork. For a lot of folks there is no longer a reason for them to buy an old school pre-86 MAC machine pistol that they don’t even really like that much for 12k, just to put a somewhat strange looking $3,000 5.56mm upper with awkward ergonomics onto it and have a “poor man’s m16” (I use this term in jest, as theres nothing “Poor” about a 15k firearm )

I understand at one point this was the best bang for your buck if you wanted a full auto 5.56mm on a more reasonable budget.. but there have been advancements in firearm tech that make the LAGE 5.56 or any 5.56 MAC upper less of a necessity to accomplish this goal.

The tenko falls into the same category as the LAGE, albeit a bit stranger looking and with even more awkward ergonomics (which are clearly necessary to accomplish its intended purpose). I think back when the concept was dreamt up it was a revolutionary idea, but the game has changed significantly since then and at this point it’s probably not going to be a big seller with all the other easily accessible full auto (or simulated full auto) 5.56mm options on the market. Theres no need to put an AR upper on a MAC lower to achieve full auto when you can do it with an AR upper on an AR lower and achieve it at a fraction of the cost without ATF approval.

And before anyone starts arguing that the FRT or super safety “isn’t really full auto”, I implore you to shoot one before coming to that conclusion…

This is just my personal opinion, and I wish Scott the best of luck with his project and I admire his determination and dedication to it.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I certainly have thought of your points, and they are valid. The market has certainly changed in the last nine years. Finally coming to market five years after the Lage Max-10/15 and the FRT settlement will have an effect on sales. How much, I don't know.

As I previously posted, this adapter is only for someone that owns a M10 RR. We spent the fair amount of time and effort in making sure that switching to and from the Tenko adapter can be done without any tools at the range. As far as changing uppers, the process is very similar if not exactly like changing the upper on a M16. What will the market think of this? I don't know for sure but changing calibers or just a fresh barrel, will tend to be inexpensive and fairly easy as long as the upper that is to be swapped out isn't too hot.

There is also the issue of price. Since we originally submitted, just during the three years of the pandemic, inflation rose 22.8%. It is my understanding that machine time has risen somewhat, but material costs (aluminum) have risen a far amount. I don't have any plans to bother getting a price from the machine shop until we have a positive determination. More than likely the price we suggested will go up. How much it will rise is up to the price from the machine shop and how many drop off the list when we have a price and a positive determination. Originally, the list was over 250 and none of the buyers knows how it works. That, I think will be a big tell.

It is difficult to be objective about yourself. I am trying to do that. How successful I will be at that, time will tell. Even if we got a positive determination today, it could take months to bring this project to market.

I very much appreciate the kind words. I also appreciate the honest opinions. I certainly don't plan to start out with building 1,000 units. The original plan was for around 50 units per month as the fabricator is a small shop once we have a slot on their production board. We also need to get some units out in the wild to see what the market thinks. But we need a positive determination before we can move forward.

Scott

 

[techspy]

Agreed on the above about the market changes. I have a Lage 9mm upper and the Max 10-15 for my M10 (converted to 7.62x39). I haven't taken them to the range in over a year now that I have FRT equipped ARs (including belt fed), MP5s, P90, AKs, UMP etc etc etc. And with one on the horizon for my 249, it will be the "heavy MG" that the Max 10-15 would have been. I still love my M10 and will prob never sell it as I collect "iconic" firearms which it certainly is, but I am past the phase of trying to get more utility out of my only FA platform.

 

[skoda]

Good point on the FRTs. They really are a game changer. Of course that could change but how and when no one can know so I won't go there.

Now you might have a few customers in Florida who can have fun stuff EXCEPT for FRTs.....

 

[Bambam]

And there is the rub. I will try to keep this concise and just focused on the Tenko as I can but I am a detail person.

October 2017, submission of 3D plastic version. 108 days, determination that the Tenko adapter was an accessory.

October 2018, submission of first aluminum version. At the same time, three Beta testers are shipped a Tenko adapter and 5,000 rds 5.56x45. Testers were expected to put a minimum of 10,000 rounds through each unit and ship back to me for evaluation.

December 2018, change in policy of submission to all SOT 07/02 manufacturers. All current submissions will be returned. All submissions going forward must be installed in a complete firearm.

February 2019, notice that the Tenko adapter will be returned without determination. Ship a Beta unit installed on a transferable M10 to the FATD as a complete unit with 16" upper. Six weeks later receive Tenko adapter originally shipped in October 2018.

After festival shooting in Las Vegas, Trump orderers ATF to make bump stocks illegal. An emboldened ATF announces plans to "clarify" the definition of "Firearm Frame Or Receiver".

Fall 2019, no communication. Borrowed money to complete project comes due. Become 07/01, still no response even as a manufacturer from the ATF.

Contact NFA specific lawyer and the senior Senator's office of my home state.

January 2020, lawyer and Senator's office let me know that determination has been completed, but I am not going to like the outcome. ATF determination is that the adapter is a machine gun as a "Collection of Parts".

The lawyer says that if I want, he can sue but it would be a waste of money as the court relies on the ATF as to what is or is not a firearm.

After a couple of years, the engineer and I start to experiment with locking mechanisms such that the adapter can not fire without the M10 lower receiver. This is 10 times harder than creating the original design.

End of July 2024, I shipped a open bolt version in 5.56X45 and a closed bolt version in rotary delayed blowback 9mm. The parts were modified such that both uppers would function on both adapters. I asked that both uppers be included in the determination of both mechanisms. If caliber and mechanism made no difference, then I requested that all commercially available AR uppers could be used with either mechanism that passes. Whether open or closed, there is no modification required to the upper receivers. There is a modification required to the bolt carrier of the open bolt mechanism and the hammer of the closed bolt mechanism.

To my knowledge, we have not posted internals of either mechanism, so how the open or closed bolt mechanism of our adapter is not public knowledge.
Sometimes, when you've been working on one complex project for years, especially one that's constantly bogged down by bureaucracy and changing rules, you need to find ways to switch your mind off, at least for a little while. For some, it's sports, for others, collecting or music, and for some, after a hard day, they like to relax with sports betting. Here's some advice for these people: read about Rolling Slots casino https://interacasino.com/rolling-slots-casino/ I think many of you know this feeling - when you want a little excitement, excitement, and a way to get away from endless documents, deadlines, and stress, but it's too late to go to the shooting range to let off steam.
This has been the most difficult experience of my life. My best friend, after I received the determination that the first aluminum version was a machine gun, said that I should give up and any further investment was wasting more money. This caused friction in our relationship such that we drifted apart. But by now I have around a quarter of a million dollars in the whole project. I am 66. I should be retiring this year. But I can't walk away from that much of an investment. Without this going to market, I will need to keep working until I can't. These are the choices that I have made so I need to follow through. Right or wrong, I am committed.

Scott
Manager A&S Conversions L.L.C.

Honestly, I don’t quite agree that all this was a “waste” just because of the ATF position or the classification issues. From the outside, it looks like you really tried to work within the system, constantly reworked the design, adapted to new requirements, and didn’t go the “whatever” route. Even if the result turned out to be much more complicated and expensive, the fact that you spent so many years proving the concept and didn’t give up after the first failure speaks volumes.

And I think your friend looked at it from a purely practical perspective — time, money, age, risks. But people who have been involved in engineering or any complex projects for years often can’t just “turn it off” in their heads and move on. Especially when not only money but also years of their lives have been invested in the project. Maybe from the outside, it looks like stubbornness, but without such stubbornness, many things would never have appeared at all.

 

[Jtm35a2]

I think the frt will be banned within 5 years. You can bet that the cia is already grooming a mass shooter armed with a frt. They’re just waiting for a friendly administration/congress before upping the meds to a level of critical mass.
All of the smart kids are buying them as cash and carry because they know what’s on the horizon.

 

[strobro32]

I think banning FRTs will be as problematic as banning guns. They are too easy to make and there's just too many out there.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I think banning FRTs will be as problematic as banning guns. They are too easy to make and there's just too many out there.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but to me just because the technology is readily available, doesn't mean that everybody, and his brother will use it. Making a semi auto firearm into a machine gun is not"rocket science". That is 150+ year old technology. What stopped the average collector from converting his semi auto to full auto since 1986 has been the threat of ten years in prison.

We are certainly in a strange situation as to commercially available mechanisms that can mimic full auto cyclic rates of fire, compared to the market value of legal machine guns. Many members here have devices in their semi auto firearms that can mimic the cyclic rate of the a machine gun. I would think if what happened to bump stocks happened to FRTs, not many owners would be shooting their FRT at a public range, if such items were changed by law to be machine guns.

There are those who have predicted that FRTs would make machine guns market value go through the floor. So far I have seen the market soften, but what is the current market value of an M10? 25 years ago I was offered one for $900, but I was saving for a M16. According to Google today adjusted for for inflation that $900 25 years ago would be $1,692.37. I would imagine if I put one of my M10s for sale at $1,700, I would get many "I'll take it, where do I send the money" messages before the end of the day.

Would I have sold more Tenko adapters seven years ago then I am now? I think that would be a true statement. Am I going to sell some Tenko adapters? I think so. How many? I don't know. We will start with 50 and see what happens.

Scott

ETA, I am aware that Bump Stocks are now legal again and Slidefire has gone back into business and sueed the Government for millions of dollars for having to destroy their inventory when Trump ordered the ATF to make Bump Stocks illegal.

 

[StenAtopia]

Can we get back to the Tenko!!!! Enough of ban this, ban that. I’m in Florida soon the only thing that will be allowed is squirt guns, semi auto of course. Also it looks like we will have our first democratic candidate taking over. Lord help us. How about a “Re-up” of the product? Video of it running? What it is? Yada. Yada. Yada!!!!!

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

I think the frt will be banned within 5 years. You can bet that the cia is already grooming a mass shooter armed with a frt. They’re just waiting for a friendly administration/congress before upping the meds to a level of critical mass.
All of the smart kids are buying them as cash and carry because they know what’s on the horizon.

Not to derail the thread but I don’t think they’ll ban the FRT, they tried that already and it’s just too complicated with the legal nuances involved… but with everyone being so brazen with the FRTs, they will just flat out ban all semi automatic firearms altogether. Federal AWB v2.0..

As far as getting back to the Tenko… I already shared my opinion but I think the comments about the FRT and SS are pretty relevant, because as long as they aren’t banned, there won’t be as much of a market for the 5.56mm MAC uppers

If you haven’t seen it.. well let’s just say it’s interesting looking and with more attractive options available it will be a hard sell in today’s market. It would have to be priced EXTREMELY Competitively to be appealing with the other options available. I understand it serves a practical purpose, but we can’t ignore the elephant in the room.. guns are a bit like cars in the hobby sense, car guys don’t just want one that goes fast, they also like their cars to look cool, so do gun guys.. and the Tenko is at a disadvantage in today’s market because it’s just not very aesthetically pleasing. It may work well and serve a practical purpose, but as long as there are other options that look better, and do the same thing, it will be more difficult to attract buyers..

The LAGE max-15 is hardly attractive IMO, in fact I personally think it looks hideously ugly, but it’s definitely a bit more streamlined than the Tenko and that is going to create some competition. It’s gonna need an attractive selling point and that’s gonna have to be the price at this point… and the ability to use a belt fed upper.

 

[skoda]

The price of the Tenko will matter quite a bit relative to other possibilities. Also I know that there are those that don't want to do the FRT thing until there is firm confirmation that it is legal to own which I doubt the govt will be working hard to make such an announcement. Doubt and fear are their most effective weapons against the proliferation of them (except in gang circles of course). I wish Scott the best of luck but it looks like his fortunes changed at a time of hurricane force headwinds.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I am sorry that I don’t have any new videos but if you search the Tube Of Yous there are eight videos. I am cautiously optimistic that we will get a positive determination, but I need to remember not to put the cart before the horse. There are lots of steps before this product actually reaches the market. My original plan was to wait until we were ready to come to market. But I got too excited when the head of FATD wrote me that the evaluation had gone to the legal department. He had no sway with that department and wouldn’t even give me a ballpark as to when they might be finished and when I would receive a determination. Like Tom Petty said “The waiting is the hardest part “.

Scott

 

[StenAtopia]

Any videos or pics of it?

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Any videos or pics of it?

This is the device in question

 

[StenAtopia]

This is the device in question

View attachment 43705

Wow!!!! That’s some CRa CRa angles. Thanks for posting.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Yes that is it, with a 10.5” 5.56X45 upper on the adapter.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Wow!!!! That’s some CRa CRa angles. Thanks for posting.

Yep. It’s definitely interesting looking. I take it those angles are necessary for function, not exactly the prettiest design but it could possibly have some more visual appeal with a belt fed upper on a bipod in a “LMG” configuration with the lower cerakoted black to blend in a little better.. (not that I would ever condone such a thing with my beloved vintage parkerized MAC receivers)… just sayin 😅

 

[A&S Conversions]

As PP, there are nine or ten videos of the Tenko 10-16 with a Shrike and FM-9 belt feds, 10.5” 5.56X45, 11.5” 7.62X39, a .22LR upper. But my favorite is the Hunting for a X-mas tree with the Tenko a little further down the list.

Scott

ETA that I am certainly open to suggestions as far as aesthetic suggestions. I have to say that at least to me, the angled grip is more comfortable to shoot, especially with longer barrel lengths. The basic shape is for function.

I am very much looking forward to the day when I can show how to install and remove the Tenko adapter.

 

[skoda]

That's kinda funky-cool looking. Now I'm interested in how it works inside.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

That's kinda funky-cool looking. Now I'm interested in how it works inside.

I’m interested in that too but I don’t think that has been made public yet for obvious reasons