Who Has Tried A J.A. Ciener Belt Fed M16
- Thread starter jsitz
- Start date
I've personally seen one run flawlessly but heard about them being problematic. Here is a link to a thread about someone making a new improved one now.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=23&t=321994
"Brother_Evil" here on UZItalk is getting one done.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=6&f=23&t=321994
"Brother_Evil" here on UZItalk is getting one done.
snipertn
Well-known member
$9,200 is a bit pricey for a beltfed system to mount on a moded 16 reciever. I don't believe most people that have a RR will want to have their reciever milled to accept this system. If you had to have a beltfed system, go with the Shrike, at least with it you dont have to mod your RR and from what I understand once broke in they run great. JMHO
snipertn
snipertn
snipertn said:
+1, I have a Shrike and love it. Runs perfectly, just can't afford to feed it.
I think if the Shrike were not available, I would not consider the Ciener system unless to do it to a standard lower and use a RDIAS.
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
BTW the basic belt fed conversion from Valkyrie Armament, LLC is $3,300. You send them the gun, they modify it, add the belt feed mechanism, test it and send it back. The links are $35.00 per 100 links. Currently, they are modifying the links one at a time. That is were the high price of the links comes in. They are working on automating the process some.
If I owned a off brand (non Colt M16) I'd have no hesitation in having it modified. Someone originally milled, drilled and ground on it to convert it from a semi auto in the first place. Most have been modified because the semi auto lowers were out of spec before they were converted. I'm sure Valkyrie would send you back the pieces he cuts out. And M60joe could weld the lower back up so you could never tell that the modification was ever done. If you used a standard upper on the modified lower you'd be able to see the mag through the hole. That would not effect function of the lower, just cosmetics. I have no plans to take my full auto stuff into battle and roll around in the dirt.
Like "amphibian", I bought a sear so I could have more options. Personally, I think this idea is cool as hell. A belt fed host for around $4,500. How cool is that? Yes the links are pricey. I'm guessing the current market value of a Shrike for someone that hasn't had $1,000 sitting with Ares for 8 or 9 years is around $7,500. At around a $3,000 price difference, I can buy almost 9,000 links. If I loose 10% per belt, it would take me a lifetime to go through all those links. And I don't need to buy 9,000 links upfront. At $200 per thousand for Wolf, how many thousand rounds do you want to shoot in an afternoon?
My brother "Doctor Evil" has a Shrike. It is a great upper and very versatile. It runs like a top. My brother bought a couple of replacement barrels from Ares at $750 each. I'm having an old MGI upper modified for use with the feed mech. I can buy stripped fluted heavy barrels from Bushmaster for $230 + $175 for the piston kit without the hand guards or carrier. So basically 1/2 the cost of Ares barrels. I'm also having one of my water cooled uppers modified for use with the Valkyrie system. I can't easily do that with a Shrike.
Is this for everyone? Absolutely not. This is like a Beta C mag X 10. You can make the belt whatever length you want, but $3,300 is a lot of money, just for a really BIG mag. But a guy could go out and buy a LL and have one of these conversions done to a semi auto piston AR for less than $10,000 and have a belt fed machinegun. Please name for me any belt fed gun that has a market value of $10,000? Better yet, name for me a .223/5.56X45 belt fed gun you can fire from the shoulder for $10,000? YMMV.
Scott
P.S. I'll be sure and have a range report when I get the guns back and try them.
If I owned a off brand (non Colt M16) I'd have no hesitation in having it modified. Someone originally milled, drilled and ground on it to convert it from a semi auto in the first place. Most have been modified because the semi auto lowers were out of spec before they were converted. I'm sure Valkyrie would send you back the pieces he cuts out. And M60joe could weld the lower back up so you could never tell that the modification was ever done. If you used a standard upper on the modified lower you'd be able to see the mag through the hole. That would not effect function of the lower, just cosmetics. I have no plans to take my full auto stuff into battle and roll around in the dirt.
Like "amphibian", I bought a sear so I could have more options. Personally, I think this idea is cool as hell. A belt fed host for around $4,500. How cool is that? Yes the links are pricey. I'm guessing the current market value of a Shrike for someone that hasn't had $1,000 sitting with Ares for 8 or 9 years is around $7,500. At around a $3,000 price difference, I can buy almost 9,000 links. If I loose 10% per belt, it would take me a lifetime to go through all those links. And I don't need to buy 9,000 links upfront. At $200 per thousand for Wolf, how many thousand rounds do you want to shoot in an afternoon?
My brother "Doctor Evil" has a Shrike. It is a great upper and very versatile. It runs like a top. My brother bought a couple of replacement barrels from Ares at $750 each. I'm having an old MGI upper modified for use with the feed mech. I can buy stripped fluted heavy barrels from Bushmaster for $230 + $175 for the piston kit without the hand guards or carrier. So basically 1/2 the cost of Ares barrels. I'm also having one of my water cooled uppers modified for use with the Valkyrie system. I can't easily do that with a Shrike.
Is this for everyone? Absolutely not. This is like a Beta C mag X 10. You can make the belt whatever length you want, but $3,300 is a lot of money, just for a really BIG mag. But a guy could go out and buy a LL and have one of these conversions done to a semi auto piston AR for less than $10,000 and have a belt fed machinegun. Please name for me any belt fed gun that has a market value of $10,000? Better yet, name for me a .223/5.56X45 belt fed gun you can fire from the shoulder for $10,000? YMMV.
Scott
P.S. I'll be sure and have a range report when I get the guns back and try them.
I'm in too. Since I have a RDIAS and a "spare" AR sitting around to me it's a no brainer. I can't even smell a belt-fed for $4K.
When the Shrike was announced I did not become a depositor because the terms of the contract were not acceptable to me. But the Valkyrie is near the same money and you get delivery in 2-3 weeks.
I passed on an early deposit Michael Machines MM23 for $4K. That took about four years to become reality. Now he's getting $12K. Too rich for my blood even though I own a Fleming HK sear.
Not going to pass this time. Plus I finally have a good use for my piston upper.
When the Shrike was announced I did not become a depositor because the terms of the contract were not acceptable to me. But the Valkyrie is near the same money and you get delivery in 2-3 weeks.
I passed on an early deposit Michael Machines MM23 for $4K. That took about four years to become reality. Now he's getting $12K. Too rich for my blood even though I own a Fleming HK sear.
Not going to pass this time. Plus I finally have a good use for my piston upper.
Having multiple RDIAS' I too was excited seeing the Valkyrie Armament AR15 belt fed finished product in both the pics and video. Several cool possible configurations came to mind......MGI quick change barrel upper, Colt LMG upper, piston uppers, etc etc.
Then I read further and found that off the shelf M27 links will not work??? How could Valkyrie go to the time and effort of doing this reproduction and not make it run with standard links???
For those of you who don't already have a belt-fed running M27 links, the only issue with the modded links would be additional cost......which is considerable compared to once-used links.
For me, I already have (2) Shrikes and an MM23e on the way, so the additional cost AND having M27 and modded M27 links together is a killer for me.
If this proves to be a reliable system and Valkyrie can at some point in the future adapt standard M27 links.......I'll be in with both feet.
Good luck to those getting in now.......please let us know how the system works.
Then I read further and found that off the shelf M27 links will not work??? How could Valkyrie go to the time and effort of doing this reproduction and not make it run with standard links???
For those of you who don't already have a belt-fed running M27 links, the only issue with the modded links would be additional cost......which is considerable compared to once-used links.
For me, I already have (2) Shrikes and an MM23e on the way, so the additional cost AND having M27 and modded M27 links together is a killer for me.
If this proves to be a reliable system and Valkyrie can at some point in the future adapt standard M27 links.......I'll be in with both feet.
Good luck to those getting in now.......please let us know how the system works.
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
To me, if I spend $350 on 1,000 links, or for that matter $700 on 2,000 links I don't care. That is peanuts compared to the other options.
I didn't send Ares $1,000 8 or 9 years ago. My cousin did, the $1,500 is still sitting in an envelope.
I also didn't send Micheal's Machine $4,000 4 or 5 years ago.
Current market price on a Shrike is around $7,500.
New orders for a MM23 is $12,000.
I sent Valkyrie a MGI lower (they didn't have to do anything to the back half with the serial #) and an original MGI upper. I've ordered three 14.5" heavy fluted barrels with piston conversions. My brother bought a couple of barrels for his Shrike as the original 16" barrel is not chrome lined. The Shrike barrels were $750 each. He has more in two replacement barrels than I have in the host gun with barrels.
Will the specialty links be a PITA? Yes. I'll need to rig up a little link catcher. I think I can adapt a brass catcher for that. I don't see that as a big deal. The big thing is, I should have my gun next week.
I sent my money last week.
The last I knew MM was booked up to next April. So if you ordered now, you won't be able to play with it until next spring. What is extra MM23 barrels going to run you? The piston parts double my barrel cost. But then I can buy chrome lined replacement barrels for $200. And the Shrike, find one for sale and buy it. Of course that is twice the money that I'm spending on the conversion and extra barrels.
Valkyrie is aware that the links are a pain. It is also a small business. I imagine they need to bring the product to the market for working capital. But I'll have something to play with now. Not a deposit and maybe in 4, 5, or 10 years you'll get your product at a reasonable price. I'd think eventually they will work out the link issue. If there is a cost for the retro fit to use standard links, I can't believe the modification would be very expensive. Even if the Valkyrie system only uses their modified links, I'll have a belt fed AR host I'll be shooting in the next week or two for 1/2 the market price of a Shrike, or a 1/3 the market price of a MM23. That leaves me a lot more funds to buy ammo with that to buy hardware. YMMV.
Scott
I didn't send Ares $1,000 8 or 9 years ago. My cousin did, the $1,500 is still sitting in an envelope.
I also didn't send Micheal's Machine $4,000 4 or 5 years ago.
Current market price on a Shrike is around $7,500.
New orders for a MM23 is $12,000.
I sent Valkyrie a MGI lower (they didn't have to do anything to the back half with the serial #) and an original MGI upper. I've ordered three 14.5" heavy fluted barrels with piston conversions. My brother bought a couple of barrels for his Shrike as the original 16" barrel is not chrome lined. The Shrike barrels were $750 each. He has more in two replacement barrels than I have in the host gun with barrels.
Will the specialty links be a PITA? Yes. I'll need to rig up a little link catcher. I think I can adapt a brass catcher for that. I don't see that as a big deal. The big thing is, I should have my gun next week.
I sent my money last week.
The last I knew MM was booked up to next April. So if you ordered now, you won't be able to play with it until next spring. What is extra MM23 barrels going to run you? The piston parts double my barrel cost. But then I can buy chrome lined replacement barrels for $200. And the Shrike, find one for sale and buy it. Of course that is twice the money that I'm spending on the conversion and extra barrels.
Valkyrie is aware that the links are a pain. It is also a small business. I imagine they need to bring the product to the market for working capital. But I'll have something to play with now. Not a deposit and maybe in 4, 5, or 10 years you'll get your product at a reasonable price. I'd think eventually they will work out the link issue. If there is a cost for the retro fit to use standard links, I can't believe the modification would be very expensive. Even if the Valkyrie system only uses their modified links, I'll have a belt fed AR host I'll be shooting in the next week or two for 1/2 the market price of a Shrike, or a 1/3 the market price of a MM23. That leaves me a lot more funds to buy ammo with that to buy hardware. YMMV.
Scott
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You didn't invest in a Shrike or MM23e, so I understand your point of view.....money and time. At the same time, it sounds as though you're trying really hard to justify / validate your choice and looking for confirmation. I already have 2 Shrikes and an MM23e on the way, so time really isn't an issue and by YOUR NUMBERS on current market values.......I am $10k plus ahead on the money for the 3 based on what I have in them. Plenty of scratch for extra bbls, accessories and ammo.
Regardless, money plays little to no part in my decision not to buy in on the Valkyrie belt fed......its the inconvenience of having to add another link type specifically for this system. As it is, I link .223 and have my choice of platforms to run it in......no worries about mixing up the links at home / range or whether I've got the right belt in the gun I'm running. May not seem like much if this is your 1st belt fed, but trust me when you have multiples, you find ways to consolidate to eliminate headaches, costs and mistakes. I do this also with my Brownings and Maxims / Vickers.
My opinion is that Valkyrie has dropped the ball....at least initially....by not adapting the system to run standard M27 links. When they do make that adaptation.....I'll join in and have another addition to the .223 belt feds I currently have. If they don't, I'll be perfectly happy with what I have. Waiting for that to happen will provide some time to see feedback on what the functionality / reliability of this system will be with the majority of its belt feed moving parts on the exterior of the gun.
Again, good luck on your purchase and I'm interested to see how you like it.......especially compared to your brother's Shrike.
Regardless, money plays little to no part in my decision not to buy in on the Valkyrie belt fed......its the inconvenience of having to add another link type specifically for this system. As it is, I link .223 and have my choice of platforms to run it in......no worries about mixing up the links at home / range or whether I've got the right belt in the gun I'm running. May not seem like much if this is your 1st belt fed, but trust me when you have multiples, you find ways to consolidate to eliminate headaches, costs and mistakes. I do this also with my Brownings and Maxims / Vickers.
My opinion is that Valkyrie has dropped the ball....at least initially....by not adapting the system to run standard M27 links. When they do make that adaptation.....I'll join in and have another addition to the .223 belt feds I currently have. If they don't, I'll be perfectly happy with what I have. Waiting for that to happen will provide some time to see feedback on what the functionality / reliability of this system will be with the majority of its belt feed moving parts on the exterior of the gun.
Again, good luck on your purchase and I'm interested to see how you like it.......especially compared to your brother's Shrike.
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hkg3k said:
Just out of curiosity when you say you have two Shrikes on the way are you referring to deposits, a call from ARES requesting your balance, or an aftermarket purchase?
If you are referring to deposits then "on the way" does not have much value in my estimation.
I agree with your view that owning a beltfed that uses standard links would preclude owning another that did not. Trying to keep things sorted would be a PITA. Of course if the modified links worked in all three you could go that route.
As far as Scott trying to justify, or get validation for, his purchase it seems to me he gave the reasons it makes sense to him. Given the mods required, even if standard links worked, it would not appeal to everyone.
If Shrikes were readily available for $5K I wouldn't consider one, but they are not. After 9 years the original depositors haven't received there's so what is the likelihood of ARES ever going into full production?
At the moment this is the "best" alternative.
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
Wow, two Shrikes, I certainly am envious. I understand that different link systems for different belt feed firearms would be a PITA, especially for standard M27 and modified M27. You certainly have planned ahead and are reaping the benefits.
You would have to admit that your situation is certainly much better than most. You posted above "money plays little to no part in my decision not to buy in on the Valkyrie belt fed" To me, money and availability has been the biggest factors in my decision to buy the Valkyrie belt fed system. I pasted on a Shrike deposit because it was a "maybe someday we'll get around to sending you your product" agreement and I had just bought my first machinegun, a Colt M16 RR. The same could be said to a lesser degree to the MM23. I didn't own a HK sear when the $4,000 deal was available. To Mike's credit he's been much better than Geoff about updates. But to me "you might get your product years from now" has very little appeal.
Most all of my firearms and accessories have been purchased in the same way. I prefer to buy used at a good price. If I like it, I keep it. If I don't like it, I'll sell it for what I paid. The Shrike and the MM23E don't fall into this possibility. But I'll bet, I'll be able to sell my system for what I paid for it if I don't like it. I bought the host MGI at a very good price just before X-mas 2007.
An email came in today saying that my set up is done and is about to ship back to me. Since I ordered 1,000 links, those won't be ready until next week or the week after depending on how the thermal deburring goes.
Yes, the modified links are better than 10 times the price of once fired links. I don't plan to have 30,000 rds belted up. A couple of thousand links should be plenty for my application. The current cost of 2,000 modified links is $700. Compared to the cost of the host firearm with the belt feed mechanism, $700 is a very small additional cost in the scope of this purchase, at least to me. I'm not a belt fed owner until this point. Is it for everyone? Nope, but it should be a viable option for the guys like me that didn't own a sear five or ten years ago, and wouldn't or didn't know to risk thousands of dollars on a "maybe some year proposition" belt fed. YMMV.
Scott
You would have to admit that your situation is certainly much better than most. You posted above "money plays little to no part in my decision not to buy in on the Valkyrie belt fed" To me, money and availability has been the biggest factors in my decision to buy the Valkyrie belt fed system. I pasted on a Shrike deposit because it was a "maybe someday we'll get around to sending you your product" agreement and I had just bought my first machinegun, a Colt M16 RR. The same could be said to a lesser degree to the MM23. I didn't own a HK sear when the $4,000 deal was available. To Mike's credit he's been much better than Geoff about updates. But to me "you might get your product years from now" has very little appeal.
Most all of my firearms and accessories have been purchased in the same way. I prefer to buy used at a good price. If I like it, I keep it. If I don't like it, I'll sell it for what I paid. The Shrike and the MM23E don't fall into this possibility. But I'll bet, I'll be able to sell my system for what I paid for it if I don't like it. I bought the host MGI at a very good price just before X-mas 2007.
An email came in today saying that my set up is done and is about to ship back to me. Since I ordered 1,000 links, those won't be ready until next week or the week after depending on how the thermal deburring goes.
Yes, the modified links are better than 10 times the price of once fired links. I don't plan to have 30,000 rds belted up. A couple of thousand links should be plenty for my application. The current cost of 2,000 modified links is $700. Compared to the cost of the host firearm with the belt feed mechanism, $700 is a very small additional cost in the scope of this purchase, at least to me. I'm not a belt fed owner until this point. Is it for everyone? Nope, but it should be a viable option for the guys like me that didn't own a sear five or ten years ago, and wouldn't or didn't know to risk thousands of dollars on a "maybe some year proposition" belt fed. YMMV.
Scott
I've been told that the system will eventually be converted to run standard links, and at that point a free upgrade will be available for previous owners. Please do not purchase based on this info, I am not involved with the company in anyway. I just thought it might be worth passing on, seeing how everyone attacks the need for custom links.
Alekhine's gun
Well-known member
- Joined
- Apr 9, 2009
- Messages
- 215
I didn't read all the responses...but a belt fed M16 is practically useless for combat...although it might be a fun novelty. Ammo weighs too much, swinging belt spoils aim, belts jam & collect dirt, too many complicated parts needed. The best high volume fire M16 is the M16A2LMG RO750. The best feed system for it is the Beta Mag. That system will do whatever you need it to do for that role. Belt fed guns with quick change barrels will run longer...but they are cumbersome, & don't fit the role of an LMG. A SAW is ok, but if it chokes in a live fight, it's bad juju. Piston AR systems can take lots of heat & abuse...but how many rounds do you REALLY plan to carry? & if you're not going to carry it, then just stay fixed with a PKM & plenty of spare belts & bbls. btw: the Ultimax 100 is probably the best LMG, but If you can't finish a mobile fight with a Colt M16A2LMG & say 4 or 5 Beta C mags...then you just weren't destined to win that fight.
A&S Conversions
UZI Talk Life Member
"I didn't read all the responses...but a belt fed M16 is practically useless for combat...although it might be a fun novelty. "
Dude, I have no plans to take my "toys" into battle. I don't know what you do for a living, but in my line of work, the odds that I would need to fire a shot in anger is just above the possibility that I'll win the lottery, that I don't play.
I'm having a MGI carbine (upper and lower) modified and a standard lower which has KNS spade grips witch I'll use with one of my water cooled uppers. The belt feed mechanism should be able to replace the 5 Beta C drums that I have gathered for the water cooled set up. The MGI set up will be to compete with my brother's Shrike, so I can have a shoulder fired belt fed machinegun too.
"Brother Evil: Will the belt fed conversion work with the MGI lower?"
I have not received my stuff back yet. Valkyrie did have to make some modifications to their upper and lower fixtures for the MGI upper and lower. According to Valkyrie, all the modifications that were needed to be done to the lower were only done to the magwell its self. The back half, which has the serial # needed no modification.
Again, as soon as I get my stuff back and get to try it out, I'll post pictures, hopefully video (I'm still learning to run the new video camera), and a range report.
Scott
Dude, I have no plans to take my "toys" into battle. I don't know what you do for a living, but in my line of work, the odds that I would need to fire a shot in anger is just above the possibility that I'll win the lottery, that I don't play.
I'm having a MGI carbine (upper and lower) modified and a standard lower which has KNS spade grips witch I'll use with one of my water cooled uppers. The belt feed mechanism should be able to replace the 5 Beta C drums that I have gathered for the water cooled set up. The MGI set up will be to compete with my brother's Shrike, so I can have a shoulder fired belt fed machinegun too.
"Brother Evil: Will the belt fed conversion work with the MGI lower?"
I have not received my stuff back yet. Valkyrie did have to make some modifications to their upper and lower fixtures for the MGI upper and lower. According to Valkyrie, all the modifications that were needed to be done to the lower were only done to the magwell its self. The back half, which has the serial # needed no modification.
Again, as soon as I get my stuff back and get to try it out, I'll post pictures, hopefully video (I'm still learning to run the new video camera), and a range report.
Scott
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