Why DO they destroy the receivers?

[kargo27]

I never did understand why they destroy the receivers and then sell them in pieces.

What is the legal reason for doing this? Do they do this with AK receivers as well? I just don't get it. :dunno

 

[Che]

They destroy them because they are full auto and you can't have those receivers. After being cut up/torched, they are no longer considered receivers are are basically scrap metal.

Some folks are happy to have pieces of the "real thing" as a conversation piece. Others think they can weld them back into being a receiver. My concern is that the BATFE has always said "once a machnine gun, always a machine gun", and putting them back together could get you in trouble. This has been true of M14 receivers, and assume you are taking a risk if you do so with the Galil receivers as well. Roll your dice and take your chances.

 

[Tenngalil]

1) Import law- No "Machine Guns" or Barrels for machine guns are importable into the US unless they are for Govt agencies.

2) The pieces are considered scrap if they meet the current rules for demil/destruction and are importable.
That's changed several times over the years from a single saw cut to the current torch cuts removing X amount of material.
Generally, the AK sheet metal rec. they remove most if not all the rec.
Early kits have the front and rear sheet still on the trunnions but the later kits the rec. was totally removed along with the barrel.

3) Grey area(maybe even lawyer territory)- you can weld the pieces together to make a rec. as long as a) the select fire provisions are removed and b) You apply an individual serial #/name of Manuf. other than the original number on it.
Putting a demil back together is a tricky thing and varies from one weapon type to another.
As Che said most ATF stick to the Once/Always thing.
1919 you have to convert the bolt before doing the rivet work.
Milled rec. AK/Galil you have to plug the disconnect hole and block the slot in the rail where the disconnect rides.
Swapping the trigger set is also a good idea.

As a US citizen you can "Manuf. 1 firearm rec. per calendar year for your personal use- NOT for resale/making money".
If you plan to do several then you need the FFL(Read TAX money).
i forget the time frame but you can sell the reactivated rec. after 1-2 years, i think.
That needs looking up to be sure.

The NFATCA is my go-to source for any questions i have as they stay on top of what's current.
i'd recommend anyone thinking of "Reactivating" a rec. look it up on their web site before starting as the down side of doing it wrong isn't appealing.
Later, jeff.

 

[gbfirearmsales]

They destroy them because they are full auto and you can't have those receivers. After being cut up/torched, they are no longer considered receivers are are basically scrap metal.

Some folks are happy to have pieces of the "real thing" as a conversation piece. Others think they can weld them back into being a receiver. My concern is that the BATFE has always said "once a machnine gun, always a machine gun", and putting them back together could get you in trouble. This has been true of M14 receivers, and assume you are taking a risk if you do so with the Galil receivers as well. Roll your dice and take your chances.

Please dont make statements that are false, it misleads new firearms enthusiasts. ATF does say once a machine gun, always a machine gun. However, ATF also says that to destroy an MG, you demil it as per their instructions. They also say that once demilled as per their instructions, it is no longer a firearm at all. Therefore, you can take a properly demilled MG, eliminate those features that made it an MG in the first place, and then rebuild the firearm from the scrap pieces of metal. This is factual, has been for many years.

You are free to weld up a properly demilled M14 receiver, as long as you chop off the offending parts BEFORE you being the reconstruction. The M14 receivers that have gotten people in trouble were not properly demilled before they were rewelded.

The only firearm I am aware of that ANY of what you state is true is the M2 carbine. Specifically, ATF defines ANY .30 carbine that is marked as M2 a machine gun, regardless of its features.

Again please, don't float misconceptions like that around.

 

[gbfirearmsales]

1) As a US citizen you can "Manuf. 1 firearm rec. per calendar year for your personal use- NOT for resale/making money".
If you plan to do several then you need the FFL(Read TAX money).
i forget the time frame but you can sell the reactivated rec. after 1-2 years, i think.

Jeff, can you post where in legislation or in ATF rules it states only one firearm per calender year for personal use?

 

[r]

i'd like to see that also cause you are the only source i've ever heard that from in 30+ years messing with firearms.

 

[gbfirearmsales]

i'd like to see that also cause you are the only source i've ever heard that from in 30+ years messing with firearms.

Same here. I just spoke with a bonafide ATF field investigator. He says there is no such limitation on how many firearms a private citizen can build per year for personal use. He also said that legislation states you can not manufacture firearms to sell them, as that would constitute as "being in the business", however, that if you make a firearm for yourself, but later decide to sell it you can. He said there is no time frame now how long you must keep it before you sell it, but that you have to make sure you aren't building firearms back to back and selling them off, as that will clearly violate the "being in the business" clause without a license. I asked him where I can find that in legislation. He directed me to the letter I posted earlier (which he emailed me last night) and pointed me to the section which reads

"a nonlicensee may manufacture a semiautomatic rifle for his or her own personal use. As long as the firearm remains in the custody of the person who manufactured it, the firearm need not be marked with a serial number or name and location of the manufacturer. However, if the firearm is transferred to another party at some point in the future, the firearm must be marked in accordance with the provisions set forth in 27 CFR, 478.92"

Right there in ATF's own words they are instructing that if the firearm changes ownership later, it must be marked. Hence, they are making clear that you are NOT forbidden from selling it, by telling you how to mark it if you get rid of it.

Now, if there is legislation on paper that says only one build per year and can't sell it, I need to see that cuz..I've manufactured a number of firearms and sold them, and certainly more than one per year over the last ten years!

 

[Tenngalil]

i had the letter book marked but ATF has changed the site and all i'm getting is a URL failure notice.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a5 was a second one i had bookmarked but it still won't open up.
i'll call Nashville office tomorrow and find out where it's at.

i had the letter you posted and the other letter saved because i asked ATF the exact same question and the answers they gave was the reason behind my getting my FFL.
The second letter had to do with excise tax and manuf. definitions and requirements.
The quotes are mine- not from a letter and are from my notes of the phone conversation with Atlanta office at that time('04-'05).
The 1 per year is also from my notes and i'll ask tomorrow where it comes from.

Yes, you as an individual can Manuf. a rec. for personal use.
And yes you can sell that rec. as long as it's marked before you sell it-That makes you the Manuf.

But, if you make rec.s for profit then you fall under the definition of a manuf. and you need the license.

i don't have 30 years doing this but i've heard many of the old timers say the same thing about making/building firearms with the intent to sell without a license- Don't even think about it.

i'll post the response when Nashville get's back to me.

 

[gbfirearmsales]

i had the letter book marked but ATF has changed the site and all i'm getting is a URL failure notice.
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/faq/faq2.htm#a5 was a second one i had bookmarked but it still won't open up.
i'll call Nashville office tomorrow and find out where it's at.

i had the letter you posted and the other letter saved because i asked ATF the exact same question and the answers they gave was the reason behind my getting my FFL.
The second letter had to do with excise tax and manuf. definitions and requirements.
The quotes are mine- not from a letter and are from my notes of the phone conversation with Atlanta office at that time('04-'05).
The 1 per year is also from my notes and i'll ask tomorrow where it comes from.

Yes, you as an individual can Manuf. a rec. for personal use.
And yes you can sell that rec. as long as it's marked before you sell it-That makes you the Manuf.

But, if you make rec.s for profit then you fall under the definition of a manuf. and you need the license.

i don't have 30 years doing this but i've heard many of the old timers say the same thing about making/building firearms with the intent to sell without a license- Don't even think about it.

i'll post the response when Nashville get's back to me.

Jeff, I know what you are referring to. The key to the different answers are that if you are "in the business" for profit, then you have to have an FFL. However if you are not "in the business", then you do not. The differentiating here is for example. I make an AK47 from a parts kit, and 2 months later I decide I hate the AMD I built, so I sell it. That is ok with ATF. Now, I go build an AK47 pistol, and after shooting it, I decide it sucks balls. Don't want it...I can then sell it too, and that is ok with ATF.

However, I can't sit down and say, hmm..I'm buying these 5 AK47 kits, and I am going to build them to sell them, and then do just that. If I build them with the intent of selling them, then I am doing it with the purpose of making it a business and in that case, I have to get an FFL.

They apply the same logic to selling firearms that you did not build. For example, if I start to buy used guns, and turn around and schedule myself at gunshows and start to sell all the used guns I am buying, then I am in the business. ATF requires me to get an FFL. However, if I buy 15 rifles this year and by november I decide i dislike 7 of them, I can sell them for profit, to turn around and buy other rifles I like more. That is ok with ATF.

Like i said, the key to it all is, if you are doing it for a business, then you must be licensed. Alot of ppl get into trouble with this because they lie, they know they are building that receiver to use on a kit they intend on selling without a license and if ATF gets stupid, they can get in trouble for that.

 

[coltcollector]

Jeff, I know what you are referring to. The key to the different answers are that if you are "in the business" for profit, then you have to have an FFL. However if you are not "in the business", then you do not. The differentiating here is for example. I make an AK47 from a parts kit, and 2 months later I decide I hate the AMD I built, so I sell it. That is ok with ATF. Now, I go build an AK47 pistol, and after shooting it, I decide it sucks balls. Don't want it...I can then sell it too, and that is ok with ATF.

However, I can't sit down and say, hmm..I'm buying these 5 AK47 kits, and I am going to build them to sell them, and then do just that. If I build them with the intent of selling them, then I am doing it with the purpose of making it a business and in that case, I have to get an FFL.

They apply the same logic to selling firearms that you did not build. For example, if I start to buy used guns, and turn around and schedule myself at gunshows and start to sell all the used guns I am buying, then I am in the business. ATF requires me to get an FFL. However, if I buy 15 rifles this year and by november I decide i dislike 7 of them, I can sell them for profit, to turn around and buy other rifles I like more. That is ok with ATF.

Like i said, the key to it all is, if you are doing it for a business, then you must be licensed. Alot of ppl get into trouble with this because they lie, they know they are building that receiver to use on a kit they intend on selling without a license and if ATF gets stupid, they can get in trouble for that.

And hope you don't get a field representative with a chip on his shoulder, got up on the wrong side of the bed, etc...
Seems you get as many different answers as agents. Same with Post Office when shipping a gun.
And when you sell that gun you made, don't forget to serial number it and put Manufacturerer info on it.

 

[gbfirearmsales]

Seems you get as many different answers as agents. Same with Post Office when shipping a gun.
And when you sell that gun you made, don't forget to serial number it and put Manufacturerer info on it.

That is my primary reason for carrying a copy of the USPS policy on firearms shipments with me when I ship a handgun or rifle via usps. I've been told many times by uneducated USPS people that I can't ship a handgun and they point me to the poster showing "no handguns"....just like I have had some of them tell me I "have to" ship a firearm with express next day....where I have to correct them as well and show them their policy. 90% of them don't even know, and have never even seen a PS1508 form, and when they do see it, they have no clue what they are supposed to do with it. Like in any area and industry, you find employees who are clueless just like you find some who know what they are talking about.

 

[RM308]

That is my primary reason for carrying a copy of the USPS policy on firearms shipments with me when I ship a handgun or rifle via usps. I've been told many times by uneducated USPS people that I can't ship a handgun and they point me to the poster showing "no handguns"....just like I have had some of them tell me I "have to" ship a firearm with express next day....where I have to correct them as well and show them their policy. 90% of them don't even know, and have never even seen a PS1508 form, and when they do see it, they have no clue what they are supposed to do with it. Like in any area and industry, you find employees who are clueless just like you find some who know what they are talking about.

I think it's more like 99% of them don't know.

On a slightly different note, I've also had them drop a couple rifles on my porch with no signature. They sat there for 2 days because we just don't use the front door that much. They were mine, but the shipping invoice clearly said an adult signature is required.

And even more amazing, I had five galil receivers sent to my FFL a couple years back. He's a one man show and took a long weekend off. I called him on Friday when I saw through the tracking software that they had been delivered. He said "Uh-oh" because he was by then a couple of states away. I said I'll go by and pick them up at your front door, he said I should not becasue then I would have been in possession of the receivers without a transfer. By Saturday afternoon, he had talked another FFL to go by and pick them up. Sure enough, they were just sitting there. And ORF clearly had marked that a signature was needed.

They don't know and they are darn lucky sometimes.

And they cause some of my gray hair.

RM308

 

[gbfirearmsales]

I think it's more like 99% of them don't know.

On a slightly different note, I've also had them drop a couple rifles on my porch with no signature. They sat there for 2 days because we just don't use the front door that much. They were mine, but the shipping invoice clearly said an adult signature is required.

And even more amazing, I had five galil receivers sent to my FFL a couple years back. He's a one man show and took a long weekend off. I called him on Friday when I saw through the tracking software that they had been delivered. He said "Uh-oh" because he was by then a couple of states away. I said I'll go by and pick them up at your front door, he said I should not becasue then I would have been in possession of the receivers without a transfer. By Saturday afternoon, he had talked another FFL to go by and pick them up. Sure enough, they were just sitting there. And ORF clearly had marked that a signature was needed.

They don't know and they are darn lucky sometimes.

And they cause some of my gray hair.

RM308

I've had firearms delivered and left at the door without any signature by all carriers EXCEPT FedEx. FedEx has never, ever left a package that required a signature at my door. I am sure though, that someone, somewhere has had a shitty experience with them too.