Will M16 values Plummet in the light of Forced Reset Triggers Being Legal

[Chisel]

I was actively looking for a Lightning Link for a couple of years. I missed out on one by a few minutes, and also had a couple of prospects that didn't pan out.

The SuperSafety scratched the M16 itch. The money I had allocated for an M16 can go toward something else, like a FAL or Thompson.

I agree. I was thinking about a lightning link so I could have a new lower instead of the pre-1986 ones. The effort and cost to set up hosts isn’t worth it since a super safety or FRT drop right in and works so well in the AR15 platform.

I think FRTs will stabilize the market for certain platforms like the M16 and MP5.

 

[Slowmo]

They are a great option if you just have a casual interest in a supported platform. Maybe you’re an M16 guy who’s a bit AK-curious (or vice versa) but don’t want to shell out for a transferable. Get a SS/FRT and have your fun.

Also a great way to try before you buy. Some guns have their quirks that become annoying over time or just don’t float your boat like you thought they would. Hard for many of us MG enthusiasts to understand, but there are some for whom the juice isn’t worth the squeeze or who find the fun wears off after a few trips.

I have had fun messing with an SS in an AR15, which has been a helpful experience. It is fun and all, but it has sort of solidified that I am really more of an SMG guy at heart and that a $30k+ M16 probably isn’t worth the money to me. YMMV.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Well it won't make a difference in Florida as those triggers are illegal here.

That being said, I can only opine as someone who has never shot either an actual M16 or an AR with one of these triggers. I don't think it will make the prices plummet or even decrease. There's just something about an actual MG that a simulation just doesn't cover. Wanting to experience actual full auto fire is the whole reason all these gadgets that simulate it even exist.

I guess I'd compare it to paying to go on the Vomit Comet to experience simulated weightlessness versus paying (much more) to go into actual outer space. Yes, the sensation may be almost indistinguishable, but it's not actually the same thing, otherwise there wouldn't be a market for space tourism at all.

From what I’ve seen, the super safety/FRT basically makes the gun fire full auto. You literally hold the trigger down and it dumps the magazine. It’s legal because of a technicality regarding each trigger pull, the trigger is resetting while youre holding it down, but it’s absolutely “full auto” rates of fire and accomplished by holding the trigger down like a full auto firearm. Even has the 3rd selector position for the full auto mode. It’s technically one pull of the trigger for each shot but if someone was shooting one in front of you, you would not be able to distinguish it from a genuine machine gun, it’s a lot more comparable to the real thing than a space simulator is to outer space.

This is more akin to astronauts being able to go to outer space with a legit space shuttle, for millions of dollars… and now there’s another option that’s a little jankier, but will still take you to space… for the cost of a greyhound bus ride.

The only difference that I’m aware of is the feel of the trigger when it functions, but if you wanna shoot 800RPM with your AR15 and not have to pay 5 figures to do so legally, it’s a very enticing option.

Cost aside… there’s also the whole not being on a federal registry aspect, which is a big deal for a lot of folks.

I’m honestly amazed the Feds haven’t figured out a way to successfully shitcan these things yet and it makes me happy that they haven’t. They tried with the FRT, and succeeded briefly but the perseverance of the designers and the 2A Community paid off and these SS/FRT devices are a giant leap for firearms rights as far as I’m concerned.

 

[ericthered]

I second the being a SMG guy thing. I like rifles and all, but SMG's are definitely the funnest and in my opinion, most useful in rapid fire. I do have a SS in every AR I own (except one), Because why not. And that is something that simply cannot be done with FA.
Now if there was just a FRT for the Uzi... i think the entire FCG would need reworked.

 

[ScottinTexas]

I’m in the camp that thinks any full auto platform with a legal SuperSafety option will see a decrease in interest…I would expect price increase rates to fall below any FA that does NOT have a SS option.

I’m also guessing at some point SS’s will be made illegal to possess in many states, if not on a Federal basis.

If it’s too good to be true it usually is.

 

[strobro32]

Nobody cares about those stupid gimmicky triggers. *sarcasm*

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

Nobody cares about those stupid gimmicky triggers.

I personally would be a little concerned about the value of my investment if I paid 50k for an M16 or DIAS, and now there’s a 150 dollar trigger pack on the market that is more or less a drop in full auto conversion, with a 3 position selector, that doesn’t require registration and allows the end user to accomplish the same exact thing, without having to spring for the big investment. I’ve seen plenty of gimmicky full auto “simulators” over the years, hellfire, ASIV, gat trigger etc etc… but nothing like this, other than a legit DIAS or lightning link. As far as I know this is the first one of these “simulator” devices that allows the user to snap the selector switch to the FA position, and just hold the trigger down like a machine gun, and empty the magazine… without having to submit paperwork and shell out the price of a brand new SUV to do so. It’s technically not full auto… but im honestly amazed they’re getting away with selling it, (not that I have a problem with it, I think machine guns should be completely unregulated altogether), I’m just shocked that the ATF has not figured out a way to classify these things as a drop in conversion device. It’s that effective.

 

[Alaska_Shooter]

They tried to classify them as such and lost

 

[A&S Conversions]

I was actively looking for a Lightning Link for a couple of years. I missed out on one by a few minutes, and also had a couple of prospects that didn't pan out.

The SuperSafety scratched the M16 itch. The money I had allocated for an M16 can go toward something else, like a FAL or Thompson.

Personally, I would recommend the Thompson, if you want to buy a machine gun, way before I would recommend full auto .308. There is a reason the M14 and all the other full auto battle rifles didn’t last in that configuration. I would think it would not be that hard to adapt a SS/FRT to a DPMS style AR10. I would try that before spending the money buying a full auto FAL. Around 95% of my shooting is offhand, shoot and move style is what I find most fun. A Thompson (I owned a reWAT M1A1 for a while) fits into that style well) was fun off the shoulder. The FN FAL, the M14, and the HK91 with a sear in it were not so fun offhand, at least to me. The barrel is long and heavy. Then there is the transition from pushing up, to pulling down. In auto, as soon as the trigger breaks that heavy barrel wants to climb. By the time I transitioned to pulling down and got back down to the target the 20 round mag was empty. I didn’t find that fun. I have seen guys who have mastered that trick. I can only imagine the number of .308 rounds it took for them to master that trick.

I think that those who believe that the SS/FRT will effect the market value of actual transferable machine guns would need to take a step back and look at the two demographics who I think are concerned.

These percentages are so tiny. This thread is such a niche of those interested in this topic. And the demographics has changed so much in my lifetime. I am old enough that I could have bought my DIAS when it was new, in 1982. But the year before, instead I bought my first car (a’75 Mercury) for $750 so I could go to work and make money for rent and food to eat.

In 1981, I checked the price with a sample size of one (a local brick and mortar dealer, a transferable Colt M16A1 was $550 plus the stamp, because the dealer could only buy replacements from Colt for those M16s being sold to Government Agencies. A semi auto SP1 sold for $170 at the same dealer.

Could a kid just starting their working life buy a new M16 for the price of a used car that a dealer would wholesale because it wasn’t worth much to them? Absolutely not. I feel the market value of my DIAS has nothing to do with the market value of a SS/FRT. Two very different items that might do similar functions.

To me this is more like a smartwatch versus a Rolex watch. Of course these two items do tell time, at a minimum. But they appeal to very different demographics. I would imagine that the 1.1 billion imported smartwatches imported into the US compared to the 1 million total worldwide output of Rolex watches don’t have much overlap.

There are thousands of firearm owners who will spend the money to setup a SS/FRT in their semi guns. And maybe four or five firearm owners will actually buy a DIAS this year and put it in a semi gun. While there might be a few firearms owners who could do both, I don’t believe we are talking about thousands who would actually do one or the other. YMMV.

Scott

 

[ScottinTexas]

Interesting article in the Wall Street Journal today about authentic vs. reproduction high-end handbags.

In short, there's a large and growing percentage of consumers who DO CARE that the $600 repops are virtually indistinguishable from the genuine based on performance, finish and appearance...and DO NOT want to spend >$10K for 'the real thing' because they don't perceive the cost is worth it. And it's causing major disruption of the high-end handbag market.

Clutch your pearls here.

Here's the point: obviously there are no legal hurdles to possessing handbags, unlike state laws prohibiting some trigger types, but the nub of the issue is that the younger generation is after value - function / appearance - at the lowest price. That actually seems to me to be analogous to buying a $40 DIAS vs. FA back in the day.

Anyway, my takeaway is that if the SS's check the giggle box to the next Generation of potential FA owners, with few exceptions (restricted states), the future of FA platforms with a SS option has been altered significantly.

The last point I'd make is that the FA market is so small that it doesn't take too many buyers entering or leaving the market to make a huge difference in prices, and there's no doubt the SS is going to siphon off FA buyers, not add to them.

 

[MontanaRenegade86]

Here's the point: obviously there are no legal hurdles to possessing handbags, unlike state laws prohibiting some trigger types, but the nub of the issue is that the younger generation is after value - function / appearance - at the lowest price. That actually seems to me to be analogous to buying a $40 DIAS vs. FA back in the day.

I get that.

My first machine gun was a Sten, even though I wanted an Uzi.

I'd never really considered an MK760, until I found one at a price that I was comfortable paying.

Even my Uzi, the machinegun I'd always wanted and swore I'd have, is a cheaper registered bolt. I did splurge on the host gun, though.

 

[strobro32]

For $80 I can afford to throw away a SS if it becomes illegal in the future. I have the original parts sitting in a bag. I already own the host. Until then, l'll complain about the cost of ammo.

 

[ericthered]

For $80 I can afford to throw away a SS if it becomes illegal in the future. I have the original parts sitting in a bag. I already own the host. Until then, l'll complain about the cost of ammo.

You are correct. The true first world problem is the price of ammo. While cheap, 22lr doesnt scratch the rapid fire fun the same way the larger more expensive calibers do. Your results may vary.

 

[atfsux]

Here is a parable that might be instructive.

Here in Arizona, we had unregulated open carry available since statehood, but CCW was always illegal. Then in 1994, we finally got a CCW permit scheme. (Loooooong story behind how that finally happened.) Of course, the libs were screeching from the rooftops that there would be blood running in the streets with concealed guns everywhere. But that didn't happen. On the 10 year anniversary, Alan Korwin, the author of the Gun Owner's Guide you are likely familiar with, urged that with a decade of the sky not falling, it had been demonstrated that CCW was not inherently bad or evil or dangerous,...and if we still had unregulated open carry, why were we requiring permits for carriers to act like gentlemen and cover their hogleg? CCW had been normalized and it was no longer unusual. From Alan's seed of an idea, there grew a movement to make CCW unregulated as well and to eliminate the need for a permit. Ultimately it succeeded. And while there is still a permit to get if you want it, it is no longer required.

My point here is that I think we will end up seeing much the same with the effect FRTs and SuperSafetys upon the entire class of machineguns. While these devices meet the technicality of not being a machinegun,...they do, however, in practical effect produce what machineguns offer.

So while none of us want to wait 10 years,...consider the effect culturally of 10 years of normalization of "simulated" machinegun ownership by anyone who wants it. Imagine the argument being about "why are we regulating these over here when they can just buy those over there?" At that time, if we have a friendly administration, it will not be such a stretch to propose that the inclusion of MGs in the NFA is superfluous and ineffective. There will by that time also be 10 years of suppressors, SBRs and SBSs out there being normalized,...demonstrating how the NFA had always been a needlessly paranoid delusion. Also bear in mind, kids who are today in their teens and early 20s will be in their prime voting and earning and spending ages by then. Like many of us, they will have grown up seeing neato machineguns on the screen that they know they can't reasonably expect to afford,...unless,....

Anyway,...like I say,...I don't want to have to wait that long. But I have a good feeling about where this is headed. If we can achieve our goals before then, great! But if what we currently have is all we get for now,...I'm not gonna let up, but neither am I in despair. We have momentum.

 

[Deerhurst]

I think a lot of commie states such as my own are trying to stop the normalization of legal and 2A protected items such as the SS and FRT.

The thing that makes me giggle is there is basically zero way to enforce it and they apparently don't care about actual FA. I would like to see outfits like GOA start helping the commie states that are starting to loose their God given rights to prevent the spread of the cancer.


I've said for years we need these kinda of devices everywhere and in everything. Normalize it. Make it common. Make it standard. Once you understand a thing you are no longer afraid of it. Hence why I try to share my MG with everyone I can. Some are apprehensive but nobody is afraid of it after shooting it. It may not be their thing but they now understand it and it is no longer a mystery or something to be afraid of.

 

[strobro32]

I was watching videos were people in FL installed super safeties. Their point was if you keep the selector in semi, it does not increase the rate of fire. Made me laugh.

FL, were machine guns are legal but FRTs are not.

 

[Deerhurst]

The rof the firearm doesn't charge with a FRT. Just allows the user to keep up.

 

[brenbuilds]

I was watching videos were people in FL installed super safeties. Their point was if you keep the selector in semi, it does not increase the rate of fire. Made me laugh.

FL, were machine guns are legal but FRTs are not.

The funny thing is that many firearm enthusiasts think that MG's are illegal, or you must be a Class 3 dealer to have them. Here in Florida the state is rife with FRT's and their ilk and it is assumed that they are legal.

 

[MGMAN45]

On ATF.Gov, ATF had posted a process that triggers that they seized or received by surrendering them can be returned if so requested.
These were previously determined to be post 86 machineguns. The lawsuit was brought by Rare breed Triggers and National Association for
Gun Rights. The plaintiffs won and ATF appealed and a final decision will be forthcoming.

The Good News is the return of the triggers. When has ATF returned anything they considered an illegal Machine Gun?

These triggers will increase the rate of fire to 750 to 900 rpm depending on barrel length and Buffer weight.
This is the same as M16 specs.

Who will spend 50-60 Thousand for a Pre86 M16 when they can have the same performance for under $1000 ??

Time will tell

Not for me,dont want a fake MG,if anyone does,go for it and good luck.

 

[Deerhurst]

Not for me,dont want a fake MG,if anyone does,go for it and good luck.

The irony of calling a semi auto rifle a fake MG. It never was and never will be anything more than a title 1 semi auto.

Seems on par with calling Jerry a fake MG since he is a machine and can get semis to cycle!