Will The Mac Style Family Of RRs Will Ever Rival The Market Value Of HK Or DIASs?

[A&S Conversions]

Personally I think that the answer is yes. The Mac style family of RRs has finally hit critical mass. There is so much "coming down the Pike" for the Mac style family of RRs already. I can think of three different open bolt rifle caliber options one of which (Lage) is already selling units. The Tenko adapter series is poised to start selling an adapter that will give the Mac style RR the functionality of a M16 RR. We are just waiting on the determination from the FATD. There is an American 180 style open bolt upper also awaiting on a determination. And that is just the stuff I have heard about. After the M16 version of the Tenko is to market, we plan on doing an AK version of the Tenko using the actual AK mechanism, not just the mags. Then we should have the funds to take on a roller delayed version of the Tenko. How cool would it be to go from open bolt to Tenko 11-5 in a matter of minutes? We are also in negotiations to bring a belt fed to the Tenko -16 version. And we certainly want to bring a .308 Tenko version to market.

I am absolutely sure that what I have listed are not the only "uppers" coming to the Mac style family of RRs. Do I think that the market value of the Mac style family of RRs will rival that of a HK sear or DIAS next week, next month, or even next year? Absolutely not. But how many collectors could afford to put six figures into a machinegun collection? But if with one RR, a collector could eventually have the functionality of a M16, a HK sear, an AK, an American 180 and a MK 48 or M60-E6 for the less than $25,000, what would the market value of that RR be? Could all of those options happen for a Mac style RR? I think so. And I could see all those options and even more happening in 5 to 10 years from now. I have been told more than once that I am overly optimistic. If you don't think I am right, please tell me what I am missing. Will an adapted Mac style RR ever be a M16? No. Would an adapted Mac style RR ever be an AK? No. How about an MP5 or HK53? Maybe even a .308 beltfed using a current military use beltfed mechanism? No, using a Mac style RR as the registered machinegun in any of those mechanisms would be an adaptation that would not be as good as the original design. But a M16 conversion is $20,000, a registered AK is around $28,000, a HK sear is around $30,000, a American 180 is around $15,000 and a M60-E6 is around $70,000 or the MAG-58 converted to Mk 48 would be a market value over $100,000. That would be the most versatile RR in the registry. That is my opinion. What is yours?

Scott

 

[strobro32]

These guns were the entry point to owning machine guns. That's how I got here. With the rising costs of "MAC" firearms, we have probably shut out the next generation of owners...and supporters.

 

[Mackjack]

These guns were the entry point to owning machine guns. That's how I got here. With the rising costs of "MAC" firearms, we have probably shut out the next generation of owners...and supporters.

Yep. At 8000 dollars a Mac that's a substantial percent of most peoples income. Every one I know thought I was insane for buying one for that much money and over a years wait time

 

[A&S Conversions]

These guns were the entry point to owning machine guns. That's how I got here. With the rising costs of "MAC" firearms, we have probably shut out the next generation of owners...and supporters.

But isn't that the nature of collecting machineguns since '86? The Mac style family of RRs is no longer the "bottom of the barrel" anymore. Yes, $7,000 to $8,000 for a Mac style RR is a lot of money. There are people buying $30,000 HK sears and DIASs.

There is still the Reising, Sten, and even the Uzi. Once the Mac style family of RRs is maxed out, I would think others will adapt other families of RRs. 50 years from now, if collectors can still get ammo, mags, and the basic framework of firearms law is structured as it is today, what would the relative market value of any registered machinegun be? As I have heard Vegas say many times, "These are the good old days".

Scott

 

[bigj480]

It depends on what is available for them and the cost of changing configurations. Right now they are $8k guns that have rifle caliber options that cost around $3k, which are not really on par with an M4 type gun as a package. At that cost, if I was new to the market, I would opt for a RLL. However, for some people they can't do the cost up front and might opt for a MAC. Belt fed might change things but who knows what the cost of those uppers might be, should they get approved. I think MACs will never be worth as much as a RLL, personally.

 

[Walksalone]

Question: lightning link will work with semi fcg?
Drop in needs full auto fcg?

 

[A&S Conversions]

Question: lightning link will work with semi fcg?
Drop in needs full auto fcg?

That is correct. It is possible to modify a M16 three round burst fire control unit to give select fire capability with a LL.

Scott

 

[thelastdinosaurs.com]

That is correct. It is possible to modify a M16 three round burst fire control unit to give select fire capability with a LL.

Scott

Question. Doesn't a LL slowdown the rate of fire do to the extra steps of tripping the hammer?

 

[rybread]

MACs have room to run but I’d expect them (in the near to mid term) to top out somewhere between 13-16k when all these uppers make it to market. They’re behind the Hk curve and will likely never catch up- if there are no serious regulatory changes they may keep going up but they will hit a wall. I’d pay 20 or maybe 30 for a mint Hk but never 40. At some point they get priced beyond their functionality and become an asset at which point they’re not of value to anyone except the people who own them. I’ve never bought a gun for it to collect dust or as an investment- if I can’t shoot it, it’s only worth what the next guy will pay.

 

[slimshady]

Rival CURRENT prices or equalize in the future where both cost about the same? Who knows about current prices, but probably not. Unless inflation makes gallon of milk $80, I don't see most "lower end" MGs climbing that much, of course if more rich folks start using them as investments... Future prices where they cost the same? Never happen, the "Cult of HK" will always keep demand for the RRs and sears way above what an "unbeliever" would pay.

 

[slimshady]

Question. Doesn't a LL slowdown the rate of fire do to the extra steps of tripping the hammer?

It shouldn't affect it very much if at all. All the LL does is trip the disconnect to release the hammer instead of using the autosear, assuming they are timed the same the difference would be just a few degrees of hammer arc. I dunno about the M16 specifically, but most autosears hold the hammer just a little further back than the disco does.

 

[challenger70rt]

I’m a believer.. that said, I don’t know that they’ll ever do HK money... but I do think they’re poised to be one of the most versatile mg’s out there. I can honestly say I think they’ll pull an honest $15-20k. They’re commonality is what may keep them from going higher. 11/9’s and M10’s are literally THE most common gun on the registry, and rarity drives price as much as versatility. And there may (likely still is) several pallets of the receivers that are registered but have never been introduced to the market. I do expect big things in the Mac market in the next 10 years. If anyone would like in on the ground floor of a nice PS 10/45 now, before they hit HK sear prices, PM me... I’ll trade straight up on a RLL. =D

 

[mustangduckk]

A true belt fed upper for the Mac platform would be the next boost in price I think. We've got Max 11-15, and the Tenko for basic rifle cal functionality.

A real belt fed would be the next real jump in price I think.

 

[A&S Conversions]

It does take a little more energy to trip the disconnector with a LL than the auto sear to release the hammer in a RR or with a DIAS. For the energy of a rifle caliber system that difference in energy drawn from the bolt/carrier group is not enough to to make a noticeable difference in function. For .22lr that minor difference is enough to effect function for that caliber. It can be challenging to get a M16 RR or DIAS to run reliably in .22lr. There have been several that have tried to get a .22lr LL conversion to run. To my knowledge no one has managed to get a LL .22lr conversion to run reliably. That and depending upon the lower used, a LL can get pinched together, fatigue, and break. The KNS Protector will eliminate the stress problem with the LL, but I think that the reputation of breaking still haunts the market value of the LL. There is also the element of setup. The LL was designed for a Colt SP-1. Other semi automatic ARs can be made to work but the carrier profile, fire control and rear take down pockets must have the right clearances. There is quite a bit of information about the LL on Quarter Bore's site.

At least that I have seen, versatility has driven pricing in the collector machinegun market. In the early 2000's most all the classic WW II guns had a market value above that of a Colt M16A1 (which had the highest market value of the M16 family of transferables other than the few A2s that got registered before '86.

The only WW II gun with a higher market value now would be Colt Thompson. At that same time (the early 2000's) the DIAS was just above the LL in market value. Now the DIAS has a significantly higher market value than that of the Colt M16A1. The same can be said for the HK sear. Again in the early 2000's, the HK sear had the lowest market value of HK roller locked conversations. Now just the sear itself without the host gun sells for more than a Ballistics double push pin MP5. Why, because with the sear conversion allows the use of that sear to turn any roller locked host gun into a machinegun.

While both the HK sear and the DIASs are incredibly versatile, these registered sears have a limitation. Each sear must be used in the reciever of the family of firearms it was designed for. So unless whatever mechanism you wish to use can be shoehorned into a roller locked or AR receiver, that mechanism can not be used with the sear. The Mac style family of RRs, does not have this issue. So as long as the mechanism is not housed in what the FATD considers a firearm, the sky is the limit. But the housing for the mechanism that is not considered a firearm by the FATD is the trick. I think that rivaling the HK sear or DIAS won't happen anytime soon. But I think it is possible because the Mac style family of RRs doesn't have that restriction that the sears do.

Also I think that the large number of transferable Mac style RRs actually works in the Mac's favor. It is very expensive to develop a new product for a machinegun. If it will cost $50,000 to develop the product. But because that machinegun for the product is for is so rare, there's only a market for 50 units of the product, it would be difficult to make a profit on the product. With at least 10% of transferable machineguns being in the Mac style family of RRs that makes for a greater possibility of enough volume of sales to allow for development and making a profit. Who knows what could come to market for the Mac style family of RRs? But with such great potential time will tell.

Scott

 

[LawBob]

Personally I think that the answer is yes. The Mac style family of RRs has finally hit critical mass. There is so much "coming down the Pike" for the Mac style family of RRs already. I can think of three different open bolt rifle caliber options one of which (Lage) is already selling units. The Tenko adapter series is poised to start selling an adapter that will give the Mac style RR the functionality of a M16 RR. We are just waiting on the determination from the FATD. There is an American 180 style open bolt upper also awaiting on a determination. And that is just the stuff I have heard about. After the M16 version of the Tenko is to market, we plan on doing an AK version of the Tenko using the actual AK mechanism, not just the mags. Then we should have the funds to take on a roller delayed version of the Tenko. How cool would it be to go from open bolt to Tenko 11-5 in a matter of minutes? We are also in negotiations to bring a belt fed to the Tenko -16 version. And we certainly want to bring a .308 Tenko version to market.

I am absolutely sure that what I have listed are not the only "uppers" coming to the Mac style family of RRs. Do I think that the market value of the Mac style family of RRs will rival that of a HK sear or DIAS next week, next month, or even next year? Absolutely not. But how many collectors could afford to put six figures into a machinegun collection? But if with one RR, a collector could eventually have the functionality of a M16, a HK sear, an AK, an American 180 and a MK 48 or M60-E6 for the less than $25,000, what would the market value of that RR be? Could all of those options happen for a Mac style RR? I think so. And I could see all those options and even more happening in 5 to 10 years from now. I have been told more than once that I am overly optimistic. If you don't think I am right, please tell me what I am missing. Will an adapted Mac style RR ever be a M16? No. Would an adapted Mac style RR ever be an AK? No. How about an MP5 or HK53? Maybe even a .308 beltfed using a current military use beltfed mechanism? No, using a Mac style RR as the registered machinegun in any of those mechanisms would be an adaptation that would not be as good as the original design. But a M16 conversion is $20,000, a registered AK is around $28,000, a HK sear is around $30,000, a American 180 is around $15,000 and a M60-E6 is around $70,000 or the MAG-58 converted to Mk 48 would be a market value over $100,000. That would be the most versatile RR in the registry. That is my opinion. What is yours?

Scott

No it won’t bc there are simply more of them by a factor of 50(?).

But they may become more popular and desirable.

 

[LawBob]

Question: lightning link will work with semi fcg?
Drop in needs full auto fcg?

No. That’s what DI stands for.

 

[hkg3k]

No. That’s what DI stands for.

I believe Walksalone's reference to "Drop In" was meant to imply DIAS...in which case he is correct that a full auto fire control group is required.

 

[LawBob]

In a modern ar is this diff? Doesn’t seem like a fcg

for the drop-in auto-sear to work in the AR-15 you need an M-16 hammer, disconnector, trigger, selector switch, and bolt carrier.

https://www.bevfitchett.us/ar15-to-m16-conversion/dropin-autosear.html

 

[LawBob]

I believe Walksalone's reference to "Drop In" was meant to imply DIAS...in which case he is correct that a full auto fire control group is required.

I don’t think so. That would require an additional hole drilled

 

[Hey...]

I don’t think so. That would require an additional hole drilled

Dear Nazi,

hkg3k I’m sure is as well versed, and fluent as we are in British machinegun and also in the sub-dialect of American full-auto lingo.

The 6th part, as you know, is typically omitted amongst the M16 cognoscenti as a variable left in the ether be it drilled or dias when talking about the FCG...jargon of this sort is usually left without factchecking as it’s understood we all speak the same language as part of fluid discussion.

p.s. the Jamaican dialect of RLL and it’s unique culture, durability, and cost structure are another separate vestige worthy of its own chapter that we’ve all read. I personally am waiting on the 2nd edition of this writing..