Would Having A Tungsten Weighted M10 Bolt Have Made A Difference To MAC?

cherenkov

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I don't disagree with any of the key points above. I do suspect "Rate of Fire" (ROF) has been a "perceived" benefit and even by those that fielded machine guns. In the eyes of many and on occasion to those who experienced the need volume suppressing fire - more is better (in certain circumstances) In WW2 there were accounts of field expedient lightening 1919 bolts by Machine gunners to increase ROF. Sometimes increased ROF is perceived as better even when it actually is not overall.

A heavier bolt or an extended receiver on the rear (like some of the early prototypes) would allow more bolt travel time to lower rate of fire. I am of the opinion there was a deliberate arrival for the high ROF on the MAC if only that it was amazing which made the appearance of being extra novelty. I can imagine the wow factor marketing of "As fast as an MG42, but quiet and portable" - "Appearing" impressive and investors often make decisions based on what sounds novel and impressive.

The near adoption of HK XM8 is an example of the enthusiastic stakeholders in the bureaucracy driving the decision ahead of the end users needs based on "perceived" benefits. The MAC thinking may have not been wrong conceptually.

The M11 and possibly M10 could have filled niche roles like pilot survival weapon, armor crews, and rear echelon PDWs. Around the same time Warsaw Pact troops were fielding Vz61s, PM63s, which were small smgs offered in anemic cartridges but effective in their own space. In these roles, most certainly a slower ROF would be desired as they run out of ammo too fast.

Sometimes a good idea suffers from bad connections and timing.

I worked on a project with Kodak to build an M16 combat optic.

Kodak being a large optics manufacturer fancied itself able to make an inexpensive scope for the M16 rifles. This was taken up only by those in management based upon perceived needs that the M16 could be enhanced by the addition of an inexpensive but valuable optics.
This wasn't out of a Broad Agency Announcement at all or DARPA which they had worked through before - just a think it up build it and see if the government likes it or if not the US government possibly the US allies (Israel) was one I recall them mentioning.


It was a robust injection molded optic where it's rigid construction made it indestructible. It was illuminated reticle with tritium, AND a quick detach night vision tube.

Ultimately Kodak suffered on two fronts - the lack of actual firearm experience by professional photographer optical engineers who designed the optic and bad timing and a poor Liaison. You can see an example in the first edition of "The Black Rifle"

Scope had it all except NO PROVISION FOR ADJUSTMENT ! Which was told to engineers would lead to failure every day for a year.

When they corrected it they added a huge cost because they parternered with ARMS/Swan to make the adjustable mount at $300 per mount and a $30 scope??!!! Cost was too high and military wasn't interested in wider use optics for rifles. Rather than retool and refine, the project was dumped and equipment destroyed written off. Kodak hired a retired General to advocate the scope , but he used his money to build alliances from top staffers down to not work within the existing process and he got nowhere besides promises that never connected. A few years later we see Flat top ARs and more optical use.

Timing for a good product means a lot, but having as many issues worked out so you don't lose momentum and proper understanding of a-typical military fulfillment.
 

mwarnick1

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That’s very interesting history. Any idea how the idea spawned internally? Was one of the senior execs ex-military or a shooter?

Business dynamics of a large company are interesting. It would have been a tough idea to sell internally from a normal employee. Usually it would be a whiz kid group or a senior exec idea
 

cherenkov

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That’s very interesting history. Any idea how the idea spawned internally? Was one of the senior execs ex-military or a shooter?

Business dynamics of a large company are interesting. It would have been a tough idea to sell internally from a normal employee. Usually it would be a whiz kid group or a senior exec idea

I seem to recall it was the brain child of a senior "large optics" division manager that dealt with lots of government contracts. Or rather managed them (Aerial and satellite imaging) So not a real military guy nor a firearms guy - At the time there was a push onto managers to think of high volume, high profit products in all areas of the company - so with some leftover research money they had he put together this concept. My understand was he wasn't a shooter at all nor were the engineers in small optics he assigned - all managerial or camera optics background. Somehow they had estimated the government had 8 million rifles. and they could conceivably sell 8 million $30-$50 scopes that were mass produced by a special manufacturing process. That made the optic is essentially one molding operation - but it was very durable - could throw it off of a building and it wouldn't break.

The technicians working on the project were in fact very knowledgeable of firearms and pleaded with the engineering team to re-consider their error and he would even explain with a demo and examples of other scopes that they needed adjustment. The response by senior engineer was studying the tolerances of the rifles they should all hit close to the same point ;)o_O:(. They looked at guns strictly as a mathematical physics calculation not with any empirical real world practical data at all.

Contracting with the local Police department (interesting the Police Armorer would later be seen in many episodes Pawn Stars as a gun expert and wrote about this scope in small arms review) that had M16A1s they soon learned their mistake. One of the engineers added a makeshift mount that used like 1/4-20 screws with quarter click adjustments that equated to 3 ft intervals of adjustment so they had one of the .gov interfaces with the other division contact some contacts and ended with Swan (A.R.M.S.) which was a great company but certainly not cheap. and when they designed specs they over-reached for tolerances this time and wanted micrometer fine adjustments that wouldn't shift. and you had a $300 (1980 bucks) in a mount.

So with the expensive mount they attempted to attract attention. They hired a retired general who told them to add the night vision capability and they did. They did not have government tender bid, BAA or DARPA project for this - so they had to go knockin gon doors and pitch the idea. Many thought it was well conceived but fell apart on price and prior to 1982 - who was using optics on AR15s. And any recommendations and feedback were met with we might buy a few -and want this feature or this but it will add this much cost, and it just unraveled the original concept of Cheap (throw-away cost) scope and into real scope territory so it blew the concept of high volume low price away..

They relied on their impeccable quality and un-equaled reputation in reconnaissance to carry them through the whole way - and never really prepared for the government to want other than what they offered - as was the case with recon imaging lenses.

It was a great concept - to have a scope that could offer robust reliable imaging for mil duty but not well timed or executed despite throwing millions into the project. They truly had money to burn in those days - every photo in the US had to be developed to be seen and you paid them to get it processed.
 

mwarnick1

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That’s fabulous history to learn. It shows a common failure in big business. Thanks for taking the time to share it.

I never thought about how much film the military must have burned through back in those days. Even if they did their own developing the materials money must have been amazingly lucrative.

I recently heard a dad explaining to his daughter what a film camera was. From her perspective in the digital age it would be hard to imagine film
 

Gaujo

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Kodak. Too rich to think twice. They should have thought twice about it when they invented the digital camera too.
 
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