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Thread: Small Victory (At Least To Me) & Submission Information

  1. #1
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    Small Victory (At Least To Me) & Submission Information

    We had a milestone on Thursday June 10th. We finally received our M10 registered lower with angled stock adapter and our 16" AR upper back from the ATF. It was originally accepted March 6, 2019 as a complete firearm with a Tenko adapter. We received our our determination a little less than a year later. We have been waiting almost a year and a half, trying to get our M10 and the other unregulated parts back from the ATF after receiving the determination of this submission.

    We have experienced two significant changes that were retroactive with no notice. We submitted the original aluminum Tenko kit with USPS return shipping label and stamps, on October 19, 2018, expecting the Technology Branch to use their Powder Springs M10 lower and a 16" AR-15/M16 M4 style upper that the Technology Branch had used in the evaluation of the original 3D printed version. We received a form letter dated February 1, 2019 that the ATF had changed their submission requirements retroactively and they would be returning our submission with no determination. We needed to resubmit the accessory installed in a complete firearm. The complete firearm (our transferable M10 registered lower receiver with the Tenko adapter, stock adapter, stock, and an AR-15/M16 upper installed. The submission also included another shipping label, insurance and stamps. Three weeks after the Technology Branch received the complete firearm, they mailed back the complete kit without being installed in a complete firearm using the enclosed label and postage.

    After receiving the determination, in which the Technology Branch said that because the Tenko adapter was a machinegun, they would not return the Tenko. We inquired about getting our machinegun and unregulated parts back. No response. Five months later, we received an email asking for a shipping label from FedEx or UPS to ship back our property. I asked about the return postage that came with the complete submission. She emailed back that she was not a Government employee, but a contractor that was not allowed to interact with the USPS. So I asked for details of the shipment. No response. Finally in January 2021, I contacted my senior Senator's Office about why was the plastic version okay but the aluminum was a machinegun. I also asked my Senior Senator's Office about getting my property back. With some round and round, the ATF volunteered to ship my property back at their expense. Of course there was no answer given as to why the two different determinations for the same basic mechanism made from different materials.

    Two submission lessons:

    1) Even for an accessory, that accessory must be installed in a complete firearm.

    2) The ATF will no longer return ship using the USPS. If you submit a machinegun you will need to include an overnight return shipping label from FedEx.

    Scott
    Manager A&S Conversions L.L.C.

  2. #2
    Registered User Galil#1's Avatar
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    = Because they are dirty rat lying SOBs...
    Glad you got back what they wanted to permanently steal from you. Smh
    Last edited by Galil#1; 06-13-2021 at 12:49 AM.

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    Just wow.

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    Registered User rchaisch's Avatar
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    Huh, govt at its best. We should let them run healthcare.

  5. #5
    Registered User glockman's Avatar
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    Because it was probably "lost" in someone's possession. They had to locate who was trying to permanently borrow it and have it returned to them. After they dug their heads out of their asses of course. Glad you got your property back.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman View Post
    Because it was probably "lost" in someone's possession. They had to locate who was trying to permanently borrow it and have it returned to them. After they dug their heads out of their asses of course. Glad you got your property back.
    Personally I don't think there was any issue of "lost". I think that they have had issues with the Postal Service. Or maybe there is some issue with the pick up? My biggest issue is, as far as I know they changed their policy with no notice. The whole requirement that an accessory must be installed in a complete firearm makes shipping more complicated.

    Of course ATF has not updated their submission requirements https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-...classification as there is no mention of the complete firearm requirement. Nor is there any reference to the policy change that they won't mail your submission back. They still have:

    "The U.S. Postal Service recommends that long guns be sent by registered mail and that no marking of any kind which would indicate the nature of the contents be placed on the outside of any parcel containing firearms.

    You cannot ship a handgun or ammunition through the U.S. Postal Service. A commercial carrier must be used to ship a handgun. Please check with the specific carrier before shipping to ensure your package meets all of legal requirements."

    This is in correct information.

    "432.25 Federal and Other Law Enforcement Agencies
    Handguns may be mailed without regard to 432.21 through 432.24 if the item is:

    Addressed to a scientific laboratory or crime detection bureau of any federal, state, or local law enforcement agency whose members are authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment.

    Sent by an authorized agent of the federal government as an official shipment to any qualified addressee in 432.21, or to a licensed manufacturer, dealer, or importer of firearms, or to a federal agency."

    It certainly seems to me that the ATF is a law enforcement agency whose members are authorized to serve warrants of arrest or commitment. So there should be no concealable firearm limitations of shipment.

    The last time the reference page as to submission requirements was last reviewEd (bottom right hand corner of the page) was May 26, 2020. Since our determination was May 26, 2020. Our determination was three months earlier. Yet the ATF didn't ship my RR and unregulated parts back until I got my Senior Senator's Office involved a year later.

    Scott
    Manager A&S Conversions L.L.C.

  7. #7
    Registered User Galil#1's Avatar
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    Bottom line is the Arrogant Tyrannical Fascists are a miserable organization of petty bumbling stumbling anti-2A anti-American disgusting imbeciles. That's all folks.

  8. #8
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    IMHO nothing nefarious - just a general lack of accountability & competence.
    Oddly, the ATF positions itself as an adversary of the firearms industry rather than as a helpful manager.

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    It's the tyranny of the bureaucracy. Nobody is responsible. Nobody is accountable.

  10. #10
    Registered User Galil#1's Avatar
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    = That is 99.9% of "our" government. They just keep selling out to the pig faced chicoms and refuse to learn that many people are beyond tired of all the fake platitudes/BS. Of course none of them SOBs learned anything on 01/06 either... rant off.

  11. #11
    Registered User Deerhurst's Avatar
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    Man, you all have really changed your tune in the last year. Glad to see folks coming around.


    Scott, glad you got your property back! Looking forward to more updates on your saga!

  12. #12
    Registered User Galil#1's Avatar
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    Scott, glad you got your property back! Looking forward to more updates on your saga![/QUOTE]

    I did not change, the riff raff trash criminals who stole the WH did.
    A POS criminal old senile idiot and his nasty mean disloyal pet monkey thing stole the Greatest Nation in history.
    Last edited by Galil#1; 06-15-2021 at 02:52 PM.

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    Registered User Spicoli's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galil#1 View Post
    I did not change, the riff raff trash criminals who stole the WH did.
    A POS criminal old senile idiot and his nasty mean disloyal pet monkey thing stole the Greatest Nation in history.
    Moderator please. Somebody needs a time out without his white dunce cap.

  14. #14
    Registered User Deerhurst's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Galil#1 View Post
    Scott, glad you got your property back! Looking forward to more updates on your saga!
    I did not change, the riff raff trash criminals who stole the WH did.
    A POS criminal old senile idiot and his nasty mean disloyal pet monkey thing stole the Greatest Nation in history.[/QUOTE]

    China pedophile joe is a piece of work for sure. Last time I made any semi center leaning remarks around here people lost their shit! I'm glad to see people are starting to come around or at least say what they are thinking.

    I'm glad he got his stuff back and glad he is calling them out on their BS. Also very half he is working on badass stuff!

    Quote Originally Posted by Spicoli View Post
    Moderator please. Somebody needs a time out without his white dunce cap.
    Boo hoo. He is right you know! Vagisil is half way down isle 5 on the right.

  15. #15
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    Getting your rightful property back = victory (of any size)

    Your threshold for “victory“ is miserably low!
    Live BRAVE, Live FREE!

    “To abandon FACTS is to abandon FREEDOM”

    It’s easy to fool someone, but almost impossible to convince them they’ve been fooled.

    I WON- January 8th 2021.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by rybread View Post
    Getting your rightful property back = victory (of any size)

    Your threshold for “victory“ is miserably low!
    I'll take any small victory that I can get and I am happy about getting it back.

    Scott

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by A&S Conversions View Post
    I'll take any small victory that I can get and I am happy about getting it back.

    Scott
    Understood and agree it’s good, but I would not define that as victory... maybe “light satisfaction” ...and that would still be an overly generous interpretation!
    Live BRAVE, Live FREE!

    “To abandon FACTS is to abandon FREEDOM”

    It’s easy to fool someone, but almost impossible to convince them they’ve been fooled.

    I WON- January 8th 2021.

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