Gauging interest in an adjustable bolt

[ktk120]

I want one!

 

[automaticlee]

Is there a working prototype yet? It's been a few weeks.

 

[Gaujo]

Yea! I was expecting version 2 by now ;-)

 

[gorillastomp]

I will update you once machining is done. I can’t wait to get some videos going!

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

I personally have no interest in slowing down the Ingram. That said, I’m always happy to see any accessories that promote the use of the ORIGINAL upper on the gun. So yes, your bolt idea appeals to me, as a collector more than anything, because it would be one less reason for people to forever split up the original upper from the gun. people love to slow down their MAC, (understandably so)…

if it works, and doesn’t cost an arm and a leg to manufacture, it could be a lucrative project for you. There is definitely a demand for this in the MAC community. I am in the minority when I say I like the original upper with a fast rate of fire, but like others said, you have to bear in mind that this community is small… one person recommended a run of 100 bolts… I think even that number is optimistic to start off and could end up landing you in a hole. I’d start with 20-30 of them and go from there (assuming you are machining them yourself, and not subject to a minimum order of X amount of pieces through a machine shop).

I sell this MAC stuff on gunbroker, as a result I kind of have my finger on the pulse of the mac community and I don’t think there’s 100 guys lined up right now to purchase slow fire bolts for the original uppers. I just had one listed on GB (an Urbach M11/9 slow fire bolt) and the level of interest was underwhelming to say the least, way less than I had expected, minimal at best. It did not reach the $1000 dollar reserve (I suppose this is a bit steep, despite CFWs selling for 3k but it started at .99 and still barely had anybody bidding), it ended up selling for $875. If it was something like the modern LAGE upper designs, sure 100 guys may line up for it… but the OEM stock configuration has become so unpopular in the MAC community since the LAGE uppers came out, that I don’t even think you could quickly or easily move more than 50 of these bolts in any reasonable period of time, you may be able to sell 100 of them eventually but it would probably take a couple years… just my personal opinion.

As long as those LAGE uppers are around, they will always dominate the “slow fire” MAC market, especially with the $700-$1000 price tag on the majority of the units (with the exception of the MAX-15 Series), but your design would certainly appeal to the purists who want to be able to keep their guns looking like an actual Ingram, and be able to have a magazine last more than 1/10th of a second, but you would have to keep the price fairly low/competitive if you want anyone to buy it. I don’t forsee any newly made tungsten bolts hitting the shelves anytime soon, so this could be a very viable option for the guys who want a CFW style setup, but cannot find one or justify the absurd cost to their wives.

 

[StephenDS]

I’d be interested.

 

[A&S Conversions]

Certainly, "MitchWerbellsGhost87" is very knowledgeable concerning the Mac style family of guns and accessories. Thank you sharing your knowledge of the Urbach M11/9 slow fire bolt. I was unaware of the existence of such a bolt. What was the ROF? Was there any way to adjust the ROF?

Certainly, I would agree with you about a slow fire bolt for the M11/NINE. I would disagree concerning the M10. To my knowledge there were only two prototypes made for the CF(W) tungsten M10 bolt. At a little less than half the number of M10 RRs than that of the M11/NINE, and there were something like 500+ M11/NINE-M11 CF(W) bolts, I would think that there would be demand for around 200 to 300 slow fire M10 bolts if sold around the $1,000 +/- mark if singles could be pulled reliably. Time will tell. Of course YMMV.

Scott

 

[mwarnick1]

I looked at the Urbach bolt on GB when you first listed it. With it being a sort of unknown one off I wasn’t quite sure how it would perform.

I don’t think that one sale is necessarily a great gauge of the market. I do 100% agree that it’s a small market though. I also love the Macs when they’re small and fast.

There is a pent up demand for Mac-10 stuff so that would help the potential new slowfire bolt. The price will be a major market determining point.

If it’s expensive then the guys with only a Mac-10 will still buy it. The guys with other options already will pass. It’ll be a balancing act to figure that one out

 

[Gaujo]

What there is an Urbach slow fire 11/9 bolt?

 

[chili17]

What there is an Urbach slow fire 11/9 bolt?

yup. They slowed down the ROF a couple of hundred rounds a minute or so. They dont work very well in my experience. I have one floating around that he gave me 20yrs ago because they did not sell.

 

[SecondAmend]

yup. They slowed down the ROF a couple of hundred rounds a minute or so. They dont work very well in my experience. I have one floating around that he gave me 20yrs ago because they did not sell.

There's an article by Keith Barlow in Small Arms Review, V4N11 (August 2001) that covers the Urbach slow fire bolt as well as several other M11/9 related rate reduction techniques.
MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

I personally have no interest in slowing down the Ingram.........I am in the minority when I say I like the original upper with a fast rate of fire

That's an interesting perspective. Would you say you identify more with a purist mindset? You acknowledge the enjoyment of Lages but there's a certain romantic appeal to appreciating Macs for their original design intent. I find perspectives like yours refreshing because they offer a unique viewpoint.

There's an article by Keith Barlow in Small Arms Review, V4N11 (August 2001) that covers the Urbach slow fire bolt as well as several other M11/9 related rate reduction techniques.

https://smallarmsreview.com/m11-9-rate-of-fire-adjusters-for-competition-and-recreational-shooting/

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

That's an interesting perspective. Would you say you identify more with a purist mindset? You acknowledge the enjoyment of Lages but there's a certain romantic appeal to appreciating Macs for their original design intent. I find perspectives like yours refreshing because they offer a unique viewpoint.


https://smallarmsreview.com/m11-9-rate-of-fire-adjusters-for-competition-and-recreational-shooting/

Yes, I am 100% a purist with these guns. I am a collector and very much into the history. I’m only really interested in the vintage stuff, original factory guns and components etc.. I know it’s not a tack driver, or as pleasant to shoot in the original configuration, but that’s how it was supposed to be… it was meant to be a fast shooting bullet hose and it does it very well. There aren’t many other MG designs that are so compact and fast shooting, or designed around a proprietary suppressor, and that’s what appeals to me, as well as the interesting and colorful history of these guns

Theres plenty of slow shooting normal MGs on the market, plenty of options. I understand that the LAGE gives people the option of having a slower firing, more modern style platform, at a lower cost, and that’s where the appeal is, but as a result I’ve noticed an influx of people buying MACs who really have no interest in the actual MAC design at all and just see it as a trigger pack for the 11/15 LAGE upper because they didn’t want to, or couldn’t, spend the money on an m16 etc. In turn, I also have been seeing a lot of early, historically significant, powder springs guns being forever separated from their original components and often times having the original finishes painted over to match the LAGE upper etc etc….

I suppose it leaves more retro vintage parts and accessories for me to score for my own collection, but I would love to see those early SMGs stay in one piece. It’s one thing to pull apart a 1986 M11/9 and sell the upper and put a LAGE on it.. but when someone does that with a 1971 powder springs M10 it does grind my gears a bit.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

100% a purist

While shopping I spoke with a broker who emphasized the importance of considering the OEM configuration when evaluating potential purchases. He noticed my interest in rate of fire and controllability and encouraged me to consider the UZI due to its characteristics in those areas, even though it came at a slightly higher price point.

The broker pointed out that aftermarket accessories often have limited resale value. He explained that selling a high-dollar item like a transferable machine gun is already challenging, and bundling it with a unique package of miscellaneous accessories further restricts the potential buyer pool. Additionally, he argued that the UZI has a higher potential value ceiling compared to the MAC.

While I appreciated the broker's insights, the MAC was already over budget and the UZI exceeded the budget that much more.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're the expert with a collection of paperwork, holsters, unique parts, and various accessories, right? Do you own other transferable machine guns besides MACs? I'm curious what other platforms interest you.

In my opinion, AR-15 platform sear triggers and HK sears, particularly for HK firearms, offer exceptional versatility due to their adaptability across multiple configurations.

 

[mwarnick1]

. Additionally, he argued that the UZI has a higher potential value ceiling compared to the MAC.


In my opinion, AR-15 platform sear triggers and HK sears, particularly for HK firearms, offer exceptional versatility due to their adaptability across multiple configurations.

Value ceiling on an Uzi — It depends on how you define value. The Uzi doesn’t offer the options you can get with a Mac. The Mac is more similar to the HK/AR/Sear options with much more potential choices

 

[hkg3k]

yup. They slowed down the ROF a couple of hundred rounds a minute or so. They dont work very well in my experience. I have one floating around that he gave me 20yrs ago because they did not sell.

I too had an Urbach 11/9 slow fire bolt back in the day (I think I received it in a pkg purchase). Anyway, my experience mirrored yours, and I soon got rid of it.

 

[GunsCarsPlanes]

how you define value

Exactly, from my perception the MAC had more value. I see value in an UZI but not as my first, I need to get the itch out of my system and like you said I feel like I own a poor mans sear.

I wish I had the "correct" box for my MAC because it's otherwise in pretty good shape and the box would really tick a box for me. I'm not sure if the serial number is marked on the box, aka you don't have "your" box then it's kind of pointless.

 

[MitchWerbellsGhost87]

While shopping I spoke with a broker who emphasized the importance of considering the OEM configuration when evaluating potential purchases. He noticed my interest in rate of fire and controllability and encouraged me to consider the UZI due to its characteristics in those areas, even though it came at a slightly higher price point.

The broker pointed out that aftermarket accessories often have limited resale value. He explained that selling a high-dollar item like a transferable machine gun is already challenging, and bundling it with a unique package of miscellaneous accessories further restricts the potential buyer pool. Additionally, he argued that the UZI has a higher potential value ceiling compared to the MAC.

While I appreciated the broker's insights, the MAC was already over budget and the UZI exceeded the budget that much more.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you're the expert with a collection of paperwork, holsters, unique parts, and various accessories, right? Do you own other transferable machine guns besides MACs? I'm curious what other platforms interest you.

In my opinion, AR-15 platform sear triggers and HK sears, particularly for HK firearms, offer exceptional versatility due to their adaptability across multiple configurations.

I do have a large collection of parts, accessories and paperwork, that is me. I live behind enemy lines and currently do not own any transferable MGs, but I have a fair amount of experience handling, tinkering with and shooting many of them over the years. I am a huge fan of the UZI platform, I collect/buy/sell UZI stuff as well, but UZI parts and accessories do not fetch the prices that MAC parts and accessories do. UZI stuff is much more common… nowhere near as rare and desirable. The MAC stuff is the most fun to collect because the chase is often better than the catch… I’m also into the retro M16, but the retro M16 stuff has been collectible forever, you’d be hard pressed to find a rare M16 item for a steal (at least anywhere on the internet, that’s for sure). I also have recently gotten into collecting SW 76/MK 760 stuff… also just not as desirable. For a “cheap” gun… the MAC parts and accessories sure are expensive.

I agree with most here about the urbach bolt. I had high hopes with the “slow-fire” title… but it’s not a CFW, there’s no info out there on it, nobody knows what the hell it is unless they have the MACMAN book. There is one article from small arms review, but it basically says the urbach doesn’t really do much and was the cheapest option. Urbach paperwork claims rates as low as 850rpm. I have never tested one, so I truly don’t know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[BlackBelt]

If they work well I would certainly buy more than one for the M10 series. There may be other guys like me thay would do the same.
Another thing to remember is that while we that visit this forum are enthusiasts I know several other Mac owners that never visit here. They love their Macs but have little interest in being a "Mac-Nerd" like myself and my love for most things Mac related.
However, I am 100% certain if this bolt came to market they would all buy one.

 

[pjm204]

As an M10 owner, my main interest at this point is for a .22lr setup. I already have the Max 10/31, Max 10/15, and OEM 9mm and .45 uppers. The slow fire bolt would have to be pretty affordable to pique my interest.