Fast MAC Concept

[Swampfoxoutdoors]

Not sure what the ROF I was looking for. Just something higher than my lage max11k.

I had in my mind something that recoiled lite and every bump of the trigger would give me 2-5 rds on a paper IDPA type target at close distances. So within 25 yards or so I guess. The ROF may not be as high as what I’m think it would need to be. Need to buy the lage VBS and play with it first.

 

[DistalRadius]

Don't get me wrong, I think a 3000RPM M11/9 with a three round burst switch would be tons of fun! But realistically, I believe the first round would hit point of aim and the other two would be in outer space.

I'm not sure about how the G11 works (insert Kraut Space Magic joke here), but the AN-94 is basically a reciprocating "sub-receiver" (for lack of a better term) that fires a super-quick two round burst while still traveling rearward in the main receiver. The second round is fired just before the "sub-receiver" (actually I think the Russians call it an "envelope") hits the back of the main receiver transferring recoil to the shooter. It is important to note that the felt recoil is the collected sum of all shots fired in the hyperbust, that is: twice the impulse of a single shot. You can't cheat physics, just delay it for a microsecond.

That alone is some impressive engineering but the feed mechanism that allows the second round to be loaded into the moving "envelope" from the same stationary magazine makes my damn head hurt.

 

[Vegas SMG]

Fast MAC concept?
Already there in stock configuration.
The M-11/9 pushes 1,500, the M11-A1 is 1,750 RPM, the M-10/45 is 1,125 RPM. How fast do you want?

 

[IndustrialRescue]

Why was the AN-94, p90 and hkp7 developed for then?

My understanding was it was to put more rounds down range on target to get a higher hit probability. Think the US tried this as well by using duplex loads.

O and the mini gun and A10 warthog as well.

Well, the HK P7 was developed as a semi auto squeeze cocked pistol. So not really sure where you're trying to go with that...

 

[rybread]

The easiest engineering to reduce recoil is adding weight. Some buffers and a bowling ball chained to your barrel should get it done.

 

[DistalRadius]

I have experimented with adding weights to my gun to aid in controllability, and it totally works but you end up with a gun that is... um... heavy. I even tried a couple of those bigass mercury recoil reducers trap shooters love. (Result: no perceptible benefit over inert weight.)

 

[A&S Conversions]

Force = Mass X Acceleration. There is no way to cheat on the formula. The energy from each round is approximately the same. So if the mass is increased the acceleration will slow. Of course if the acceleration is diminished too much then the firearm mechanism won't have enough acceleration to function.

Scott

 

[Swampfoxoutdoors]

Well, the HK P7 was developed as a semi auto squeeze cocked pistol. So not really sure where you're trying to go with that...

MP7 forgot the M, quick google will show they exist...

 

[Swampfoxoutdoors]

Fast MAC concept?
Already there in stock configuration.
The M-11/9 pushes 1,500, the M11-A1 is 1,750 RPM, the M-10/45 is 1,125 RPM. How fast do you want?

Thats part of the problem I don't know yet. I guess I need to get out and put it on paper and see.

I was hoping for some sort of ultra fast set up to possibly compete with but after hearing yalls reply that will most likely be way too fast/inaccurate.

I need to just get the lage VBS system and play with it.

Also will the speed cube work in a lage max11k upper?

 

[A&S Conversions]

Personally I don't think it is so much about inaccuracy. No matter what the cyclic rate, the first round is the first round. That is more about the sights and the manipulation of the trigger. But burning up three to five rounds per target, when most of the time, one round will neutralize the target, will tend to require more mag changes. Mag changes add to the shooter's time.

Scott

 

[xdamagedx]

The entire match looked as this it was engineered to be won by someone who had the slowest ROF. I’m about 90% sure a PCC would have beat everyone there.

I can relate to this part. Last year I did my first subgun match, finished right in the middle. I was happy... right up until I realized I was beaten by a friend who participated with a PCC. I 100% understand the trigger control/gun manipulation/mag change timing/etc. as a part of the competition... I really do. BUT, he has about the same experience as me and did WAAAAY better as far as times/scores go... and it was actually a SUBGUN competition. It seems like there almost needs to be a "minimum speed limit" or something.

(ROF guesstimates ahead, don't argue actual numbers, it's the point I'm after here) If a greasegun/cfw/pcc can do <700 rpm, and mp5's/lage uppers/uzis/9mm m16's are all 1,000+ or so, it's almost different classes.

 

[A&S Conversions]

I can relate to this part. Last year I did my first subgun match, finished right in the middle. I was happy... right up until I realized I was beaten by a friend who participated with a PCC. I 100% understand the trigger control/gun manipulation/mag change timing/etc. as a part of the competition... I really do. BUT, he has about the same experience as me and did WAAAAY better as far as times/scores go... and it was actually a SUBGUN competition. It seems like there almost needs to be a "minimum speed limit" or something.

(ROF guesstimates ahead, don't argue actual numbers, it's the point I'm after here) If a greasegun/cfw/pcc can do <700 rpm, and mp5's/lage uppers/uzis/9mm m16's are all 1,000+ or so, it's almost different classes.

This is why Law Enforcement would have the selector in "SEMI" instead of "AUTO". Part of the whole point of a subgun match rules is that even if the subgun you have is select fire, the selector must be in the "AUTO" position.

As far as a ROF goes, there are things that can be done. The system can be "tuned" to a cyclic range that is easier to pull singles. Trigger/hammer sear engagement can be adjusted even in "AUTO" such that only one round is fired. There is also learning how to manipulate the trigger such that only one round is fired.

At a match, there was a stage where the targets were 25 yards away. Each target needed two rounds in the A section of an IDPA silhouette or four rounds anywhere in the target. Each target had a no shoot high and to the right of it. I was using a MP5K clone and my HK sear. The gun has a cyclic rate of just over 900 RPM. I shot the whole stage pulling singles because I know how to manipulate the trigger to do so. Before I left the line the RO had me fire a burst into the berm to confirm I had automatic function. As listed above, there is many different ways or combinations of ways to make a subgun pull singles.

Scott

 

[IndustrialRescue]

MP7 forgot the M, quick google will show they exist...

MP7 is just a pistol round that can defeat body armor, not a superfast space gun like the G11. Just another subgun. Same idea as the P90, except HK can't get the actual pistol to work and defeat body armor like the FN57 can.

 

[CRofMel]

Here is my M11/9 w/ speed cube. Around 1800rpm with 50 and then 30 round mag. To be honest it's pretty controllable holding it down or in bursts but I'm also a big guy.

 

[Swampfoxoutdoors]

Here is my M11/9 w/ speed cube. Around 1800rpm with 50 and then 30 round mag. To be honest it's pretty controllable holding it down or in bursts but I'm also a big guy.

That actually looked supper controllable and fun!

Just had a friend come by work and he informed me that IDPA now has a PCC class and they have been shooting them pretty regular close to the house. Now I got to see if they will allow MGs in the shoot.

 

[Fishman]

That thing LAUNCHES brass lol

 

[DistalRadius]

MP7 is just a pistol round that can defeat body armor, not a superfast space gun like the G11. Just another subgun. Same idea as the P90, except HK can't get the actual pistol to work and defeat body armor like the FN57 can.

Humorously enough, when NATO was doing the testing for their proposed PDW program (early 2000s), FNs 5.7x28 was found to be "undoubtedly superior" than HKs 4.6x30 platform both in terms of armor penetration "system maturity". This of course threw HK into a Teutonic rage, Germany rejected the findings of the trials, subsequent development ground to a halt, and as a result neither round was standardized and NATO never got their PDW.

Thanks HK. :bang

 

[No. 6]

Here is my M11/9 w/ speed cube. Around 1800rpm with 50 and then 30 round mag. To be honest it's pretty controllable holding it down or in bursts but I'm also a big guy.

That thing LAUNCHES brass lol

It's a brass rainbow!
Seriously, does look controllable, fun, but expensive.

 

[Gaujo]

It's bad form to own MG and complain about ammo costs

How woukd you feel about a guy with a Ferrari complaining about gas?

 

[No. 6]

It's bad form to own MG and complain about ammo costs

How woukd you feel about a guy with a Ferrari complaining about gas?

LOL Valid point.