FN FNC Bolt

[navgunner]

@bauerdb2 , clarification to my last post. I use the handle navgunner for both UT and Sturm so with respect to that, the answer is yes, I’m the “same” person.

However, I now see that you were replying to howdy’s post. With respect to that person/company which he’s referring to the answer is no, that’s a completely separate entity. I spoke with them and they have no intention of making FNC bolts in the near-term but did offer their services to help with my effort. I may utilize some of their manufacturing services but for now it’s too early to know.

Please excuse my misunderstanding of your question.

 

[navgunner]

As it stands, my plan is to kickoff production with just 50 units and then wait to see where things go before I start another run. Regardless, I don't anticipate doing more than two total runs (150 -350 units total). Please be aware that my final order volume will depend completely on how much interest I receive from our community (I'm not stocking these).

My goal is to start collecting pre-orders sometime in October and then have bolts ready for delivery to customers in December. Customers that pre-order (paid) will receive a to-be-determined discount of somewhere between 10%-15% off. I'll know more as I get the engineering / manufacturing costs tallied up for final pricing. My estimate is still in the $500-$650 per bolt range.

As of now, it looks like these bolts may have to come stripped (w/o extractors). I’m still trying to locate enough extractor sets to offer them complete but sourcing 50 to 100+ sets is posing a real challenge. So... if anyone can assist me with a bulk order, I'd be very appreciative. Remember, these extractors are the same ones that are currently being used in FN's M249 (there are two versions, either works). I already have a source for the retainer pins, so we'll just need the extractor, spring, and spring guide pin.

 

[howdy]

just need the extractor, spring, and spring guide pin.

You might ask Wolff Gunsprings about the spring, probably just need to send them one and they can replicate it. They are usually helpful in doing so for needed gun springs.

I am certainly in for 2 bolts from the first run, hopefully more for the 2nd run.
So glad you're getting this project going!

 

[bauerdb2]

As it stands, my plan is to kickoff production with just 50 units and then wait to see where things go before I start another run. Regardless, I don't anticipate doing more than two total runs (150 -350 units total). Please be aware that my final order volume will depend completely on how much interest I receive from our community (I'm not stocking these).

My goal is to start collecting pre-orders sometime in October and then have bolts ready for delivery to customers in December. Customers that pre-order (paid) will receive a to-be-determined discount of somewhere between 10%-15% off. I'll know more as I get the engineering / manufacturing costs tallied up for final pricing. My estimate is still in the $500-$650 per bolt range.

As of now, it looks like these bolts may have to come stripped (w/o extractors). I’m still trying to locate enough extractor sets to offer them complete but sourcing 50 to 100+ sets is posing a real challenge. So... if anyone can assist me with a bulk order, I'd be very appreciative. Remember, these extractors are the same ones that are currently being used in FN's M249 (there are two versions, either works). I already have a source for the retainer pins, so we'll just need the extractor, spring, and spring guide pin.

Not to sound unappreciative but $500-$650 for an incomplete bolt head seems high. Have you asked https://rimcountrymfg.com/

 

[navgunner]

@bauerdb2 I know that you didn’t mean to be unappreciative but it’s hard to not be offended. I’ve had tremendous support so far, even with being completely transparent about the est. high cost. True, there’s going to be a population of people that don’t see the value and that’s fine. I’m not making these for those people.


Currently, I’ve been blessed with the assistance of Curtis Higgins, owner of S&H Arms. Curtis has more experience with the FNC than anyone else here in the United States and is the chief reason why we (US residents) have thousands of FNC “transferables”. Of course, I recognize that there’s a few registered receivers here in the country (I have one myself) but the vast majority of select-fire FNCs are sear guns where to the very best of my knowledge S&H is the only company that made them. I say this with the hope that people here feel some comfort, knowing that
Such a high level of thought and consideration is being put into this project.

Individuals have talked about doing these bolts for years yet nobody has stepped up to make a notable attempt by even starting this project and I can absolutely see why. A 3D scan (reverse engineering, ie just the model file) runs about $5,000 but in addition to that, there’s of course more engineering work like toleranced drawings, etc., and then there’s the complex machining, heat treating, coating. All of this is sunk cost even before I factor in my time / resources. I’m gonna be really lucky if I break even.

Further detail: As with anything, small production-runs severely inflate peace prices which absolutely applies to this project. I speculate that I can only sell a couple hundred of these… right? What do you think that costs (referring above)? Also, the people that need these are the same people that are willing to spend $6,000 on a semi auto and upwards of $20,000 for a full-auto. If there’s even the slightest hesitation in your mind that $500-$650 isn’t worth a bolt that’s been relatively unobtainable for decades well… then that’s not someone that I’m willing to deal with.

I have a serious offer for anybody that’s willing to take it. If someone wants to relieve me of the risk associated with this bolt project by giving me the capital upfront for 500 bolts than I’ll sell the bolts for $265 each. Deal?? An added benefit would be that you would own all the IP that I create, but you’d have to pedal the bolts until they’re all sold. Once I deliver functioning parts, I’m out.

As I’ve mentioned before, there’s not a fortune to be made making the specialty parts. Honestly, my reason for even trying is because people say it can’t be done and I think that’s nonsense. It absolutely can be done but quite frankly it’s not worth it as a commercial venture.

 

[bauerdb2]

@bauerdb2 I know that you didn’t mean to be unappreciative but it’s hard to not be offended. I’ve had tremendous support so far, even with being completely transparent about the est. high cost. True, there’s going to be a population of people that don’t see the value and that’s fine. I’m not making these for those people.


Currently, I’ve been blessed with the assistance of Curtis Higgins, owner of S&H Arms. Curtis has more experience with the FNC than anyone else here in the United States and is the chief reason why we (US residents) have thousands of FNC “transferables”. Of course, I recognize that there’s a few registered receivers here in the country (I have one myself) but the vast majority of select-fire FNCs are sear guns where to the very best of my knowledge S&H is the only company that made them. I say this with the hope that people here feel some comfort, knowing that
Such a high level of thought and consideration is being put into this project.

Individuals have talked about doing these bolts for years yet nobody has stepped up to make a notable attempt by even starting this project and I can absolutely see why. A 3D scan (reverse engineering, ie just the model file) runs about $5,000 but in addition to that, there’s of course more engineering work like toleranced drawings, etc., and then there’s the complex machining, heat treating, coating. All of this is sunk cost even before I factor in my time / resources. I’m gonna be really lucky if I break even.

Further detail: As with anything, small production-runs severely inflate peace prices which absolutely applies to this project. I speculate that I can only sell a couple hundred of these… right? What do you think that costs (referring above)? Also, the people that need these are the same people that are willing to spend $6,000 on a semi auto and upwards of $20,000 for a full-auto. If there’s even the slightest hesitation in your mind that $500-$650 isn’t worth a bolt that’s been relatively unobtainable for decades well… then that’s not someone that I’m willing to deal with.

I have a serious offer for anybody that’s willing to take it. If someone wants to relieve me of the risk associated with this bolt project by giving me the capital upfront for 500 bolts than I’ll sell the bolts for $265 each. Deal?? An added benefit would be that you would own all the IP that I create, but you’d have to pedal the bolts until they’re all sold. Once I deliver functioning parts, I’m out.

As I’ve mentioned before, there’s not a fortune to be made making the specialty parts. Honestly, my reason for even trying is because people say it can’t be done and I think that’s nonsense. It absolutely can be done but quite frankly it’s not worth it as a commercial venture.

Is Curtis doing these?

 

[navgunner]

@bauerdb2 I’m doing these bolts.

 

[Davises]

Navgunner - put me down for 1 bolt. I tried to buy one on gunbroker several years ago just to have one…the bolt sold for over 1k if I remember correctly…at the time a semi FNC was 3k..so I think your estimated price of $650 is a bargain.

Sometimes I think FNC owners are their own worst enemy…they talk about wishing spare parts were available, but when parts become available from time to time they complain about the price and then keep their money in their pocket.

 

[navgunner]

Navgunner - put me down for 1 bolt. I tried to buy one on gunbroker several years ago just to have one…the bolt sold for over 1k if I remember correctly…at the time a semi FNC was 3k..so I think your estimated price of $650 is a bargain.

Sometimes I think FNC owners are their own worst enemy…they talk about wishing spare parts were available, but when parts become available from time to time they complain about the price and then keep their money in their pocket.

will do, @Davises . Please send me a PM with your contact information and I'll get you on the list.

 

[navgunner]

If I can't secure enough extractors, and end up having to sell these bolts stripped than the sales price will reflect it (closer to the $500).

1. I received a heartbreaking PM yesterday evening from a gentleman who experienced a broken bolt on his FNC. He is a perfect example of why I'm trying to get these bolts produced.
2. Despite that I've already sunk a ton of money and time into this project, we're not out of the weeds just yet. These are complex parts and there's still a lot of work yet to be done. That's why I'm waiting to take pre-orders.

 

[navgunner]

Anyone who's expressed interest will have a guaranteed spot for pre-orders (Oct.-Nov. time frame) provided those individuals gave me a PM with their contact information.

I do plan to manufacture some quantity of additional bolts based on interest, but not so many that I take unnecessary additional risk.

 

[Quake Guy]

Sent a PM "conversation". Anyway, $500 is much better than $650. But hey, its worth it. The overhead is a killer. I would suggest you do the math and price at a break even point of 100 or 150 units. After that you can start rolling in the profit. I think you should be able to sell 150 easy. 300 I am not so sure.

These guns are so much fun to shoot, but Christ at $20k I'm afraid to run them hard. When Lage first offered his 556 upper for $3k, FNCs were at most $10-12k. Now his upper is $3200 and FNCs are double the cost, maybe having that upper not such a bad idea now.

The real question in your analysis, how many people really shoot their FNCs, I think its a low number. This forum was dead for a couple years and only recently has more than one post in the last 3 months.

 

[navgunner]

Sent a PM "conversation". Anyway, $500 is much better than $650. But hey, its worth it. The overhead is a killer. I would suggest you do the math and price at a break even point of 100 or 150 units. After that you can start rolling in the profit. I think you should be able to sell 150 easy. 300 I am not so sure.

These guns are so much fun to shoot, but Christ at $20k I'm afraid to run them hard. When Lage first offered his 556 upper for $3k, FNCs were at most $10-12k. Now his upper is $3200 and FNCs are double the cost, maybe having that upper not such a bad idea now.

The real question in your analysis, how many people really shoot their FNCs, I think its a low number. This forum was dead for a couple years and only recently has more than one post in the last 3 months.

@Quake Guy - great comments, thank you.

My thinking behind selling the ~350 bolts was that's about 5% of the total number of FNC rifles originally imported here in the US but I'm now starting to feel like even 100 may be ambitious. For transparency purposes, so far, I've only received interest for fifteen bolts which leaves me with very little incentive to produce too many more. By sticking with my initial run of just 50 bolts, I'll be extremely lucky if I breakeven and that doesn't factor in my time, TVM (time value of money), and the risk associated with a project like this.

 

[sweersa]

If I had an FNC, and if a domestically produced bolt was available, I'd get one, and run it in my gun so the original bolt can be kept in the safe and thus no risk of breaking an original bolt as an FNC with a US made bolt (or a broken FN bolt) is worth less to most than one with an original FN bolt. I'd feel better about running it harder, especially if the US made bolts are better quality, and less likely to break than the FN ones. I wonder why they seem to break so much anyways. The design seems to vaguely resemble an AK bolt, and they rarely break, and there's many, many times more AKs in the US than FNCs.

I understand a project of passion, and this certainly is one of those as there is a chance you could lose money on it, but still take the risk. I did something similar years ago, but it was reproducing a rare spiral bound manual for the HK XM8. Though it was a loss of maybe a few hundred dollars, on a significantly cheaper project, of course. But, I still have no regrets, because I made something I was proud of, and those who purchased or were gifted what I made were happy with them.

I wish you the best on this project, and I hope it comes to full fruition and that you make good money for your efforts as well, which you more than deserve at this point for taking on a project than I know many with FNCs or those who plan on owning an FNC appreciate.

 

[bauerdb2]

I think you should be able to sell 150 easy.

I thought that was a highly optimistic statement before the OP revealed that number is 10x the current interest.

 

[bauerdb2]

If I had an FNC, and if a domestically produced bolt was available, I'd get one, and run it in my gun so the original bolt can be kept in the safe and thus no risk of breaking an original bolt as an FNC with a US made bolt (or a broken FN bolt) is worth less to most than one with an original FN bolt. I'd feel better about running it harder, especially if the US made bolts are better quality, and less likely to break than the FN ones. I wonder why they seem to break so much anyways. The design seems to vaguely resemble an AK bolt, and they rarely break, and there's many, many times more AKs in the US than FNCs.

It is not that easy unfortunately. These are incomplete bolt heads and unfortunately the extractor parts are also difficult to source and costly. Likely the FNC owner would remove the extractor parts from the original FNC bolt head. Between this and confirming head space it is unlikely this will be a drop in ready solution.

Head space would absolutely need to be checked when using a new bolthead. If head space does need to be changed is the same process as changing the barrel. The gas block will need to be pressed off. The unique barrel nut will need to be loosened. The barrel needs to be rotated to change head space. The existing hole can be welded up and turned out in the lathe. Then the barrel is reinstalled, and a new hole is drilled in the correct location. Then reassembled.

I just spoke to the FNC parts guru on the boards. He said in the 25 years that he has been active; he has seen 1 broken bolt head. Seems like bolt head breakage is another unconfirmed FNC myth. Just like there are more FNC sears than rifles.

I love the idea of this project. I am just concerned about the feasibility of a non-drop in solution at that price point. I would expect limited interest as the OP has confirmed. If you pro-actively changed the bolt head and barrel, what would you have? An aftermarket bolt head and barrel in your Belgian FNC.

 

[navgunner]

It is not that easy unfortunately. These are incomplete bolt heads and unfortunately the extractor parts are also difficult to source and costly. Likely the FNC owner would remove the extractor parts from the original FNC bolt head. Between this and confirming head space it is unlikely this will be a drop in ready solution.

Head space would absolutely need to be checked when using a new bolthead. If head space does need to be changed is the same process as changing the barrel. The gas block will need to be pressed off. The unique barrel nut will need to be loosened. The barrel needs to be rotated to change head space. The existing hole can be welded up and turned out in the lathe. Then the barrel is reinstalled, and a new hole is drilled in the correct location. Then reassembled.

I just spoke to the FNC parts guru on the boards. He said in the 25 years that he has been active; he has seen 1 broken bolt head. Seems like bolt head breakage is another unconfirmed FNC myth. Just like there are more FNC sears than rifles.

I love the idea of this project. I am just concerned about the feasibility of a non-drop in solution at that price point. I would expect limited interest as the OP has confirmed. If you pro-actively changed the bolt head and barrel, what would you have? An aftermarket bolt head and barrel in your Belgian FNC.

@bauerdb2 most, if not all of the comments in your last post #56 have already been discussed at length earlier within this thread. I get it… you don’t want a bolt.

If I took a lesser attitude, then I should immediately abandon this bolt project just like others have in the past but unfortunately by doing so I’d personally feel that I wasn’t doing my small part to keep these “transferables” working for the next generation. All that being said, I’m not across the finish line just yet and there’s ample opportunity for this project to fail but by God, I’m doing my part to see that it doesn’t. As I’ve previously mentioned, I’m doing this out of passion, despite this being a financial looser for me (I knew that going into it).

Extractors are available and I can absolutely help direct buyers where to source them but at $100 - $250 each I’m not going to include them with my setup. (If extractors are worth that much then why all the flack for a ~$500 bolt that’s unobtainable?)

Now I recognize that there’s lots of collectors / speculators among us and that great, but to me these things are meant to be shot. With such a limited quantity available for private sale here in the US there will eventually have to be an aftermarket solution. For one of those owners who keeps their MGs in a dark safe all the time, they’re not going to want spare parts anyway so none of this thread applies to them.

Our “parts guru” is fuatos, a fantastic individual and I’m incredibly thankful for all that he does for our community. Yes, he told me too that he’s only heard of one broken bolt. I personally know of only five broken bolts of the ~6,500 examples here in the US. Now, I recognize that feels like a low number but considering there’s MAYBE one bolt that comes available for sale every 5-years or so (ask paco and fuatos) there’s going to be some population of owners that already want/need these (probably the same people that bought an extra GM barrel).

Ultimately, it’s to each their own.

 

[sweersa]

I believe others have tried in the past, unsuccessfully, to order numerous bolts from Indonesia (Pindad). Not sure about the factory in Sweden that makes the AK5s. That’s an option, but they probably don’t care about an order that wouldn’t be massive, not to mention the legal hurdles of exporting and importing.

I was amazed at how much money even small parts are worth for the FNC when I sold off the parts I collected over the years after I decided to go the Colt route over the FNC.

 

[navgunner]

I believe others have tried in the past, unsuccessfully, to order numerous bolts from Indonesia (Pindad). Not sure about the factory in Sweden that makes the AK5s. That’s an option, but they probably don’t care about an order that wouldn’t be massive, not to mention the legal hurdles of exporting and importing.

I was amazed at how much money even small parts are worth for the FNC when I sold off the parts I collected over the years after I decided to go the Colt route over the FNC.

I completely understand that... more often than not, if I'm shooting F/A I am bringing out my Colt A2 and my UZI.

 

[howdy]

Personally, I shoot my FNC, it comes to the range with me every time I go, and I would not care in the slightest if my bolt or barrel was US made instead of Belgian. The gun is fun as heck, and everyone I bring to shoot it agrees. I know an AR would be a better long-term mg to own because of parts availability, but ARs are boring, the FNC is cool, so I'm going to ride it out as long as it will last. If one day this gun breaks down and cannot be repaired or parts replaced, I will sell it off for parts at a loss and be content that I enjoyed it while I could. An effort to produce critical spare parts for it helps keep that day further out. Thank you for taking a shot at this project, Navgunner.