CFW Bolt Just Sold on GB for $2900

[Ericoak]

3900. Crazy-town.

It hasn’t sold though.

 

[Gaffshot]

What is more valuable: a CFW-9 or CFW-9A bolt?

 

[Slowmo]

What is more valuable: a CFW-9 or CFW-9A bolt?

I could be wrong, but I think the CFW-9 is more rare, so maybe more valuable.

 

[SecondAmend]

I could be wrong, but I think the CFW-9 is more rare, so maybe more valuable.

IIRC, not including prototypes, there were about 310 of the CF-W 9 bolts (10 early production, a run of 100 that sold out in about 6 mo. and a second run of 200 that took about 2 1/2 years to sell). And there has been five runs (over about three years) of 50 each of the A bolts for a total of 250. The A bolt can be used in an M11-380 receiver as well as in an M11/9 receiver (with a spacer at the back to prevent overtravel?). So there are fewer of the A bolts, and the A bolt is more versatile. But the A bolt weighs 25 oz. while the "9" bolt weighs 32 oz. and, thus, generally yields a lower ROF. In any case, value is in the eye of the buyer.

MHO,YMMV, please pardon and correct me if my production numbers or other analyses are off, etc.

 

[Slowmo]

IIRC, not including prototypes, there were about 310 of the CF-W 9 bolts (10 early production, a run of 100 that sold out in about 6 mo. and a second run of 200 that took about 2 1/2 years to sell). And there has been five runs (over about three years) of 50 each of the A bolts for a total of 250. The A bolt can be used in an M11-380 receiver as well as in an M11/9 receiver (with a spacer at the back to prevent overtravel?). So there are fewer of the A bolts, and the A bolt is more versatile. But the A bolt weighs 25 oz. while the "9" bolt weighs 32 oz. and, thus, generally yields a lower ROF. In any case, value is in the eye of the buyer.

MHO,YMMV, please pardon and correct me if my production numbers or other analyses are off, etc.

Good info, thanks for sharing.

I personally would value an A-bolt more because of the compatibility with the M11. Having a controllable machine-pistol not much larger than a Glock is something special in my eyes, and also something relatively rare in the transferable MG world. There really isn't a substitute for the CF-Wa bolt for me. I've got one of the Lage Max-11/380 uppers, but it is much, much bigger.

Regarding the M11/9 platform, a Lage Max-K is a pretty good substitute for a CF-W or CF-Wa bolt in my eyes.

 

[A&S Conversions]

The A bolt can be used in a M11 with a small magwell in .380, a M11 with a large magwell in 9mm, and a M11/NINE as long as the right ejector, spring, and guide rod. That is why Tom stopped making the full size bolt. On top of that, there was a sizable increase in the price of tungsten. Tom had said to me that because of the increased cost of the larger amount of tungsten and that the A bolt being able to be used in three different models, he saw no reason to make the full size bolt any more.

It is my understanding that Practical Solutions would like to restart A bolt production. The full size bolt is not had any talk about more being produced.

Scott

 

[Ericoak]

Well I did get a question from someone about configuration, so clearly someone is interested.

 

[Ericoak]

The A bolt may be more versatile, but the e full size in the smoothest shooter.

 

[Devilmoon]

Damn makes me want to sell one of mine

 

[Hey...]

The A bolt may be more versatile, but the e full size in the smoothest shooter.

I must opine as I’ve tried all options.

The shorter A-bolt weighs a chunk less than the full size, and since neither hit the rear of the receiver (like an Ultimax doesn’t), which if it hit the backplate adds an impact dynamic, the universe must conclude due to physics the lesser weight object at the same rate of fire must impart less felt dynamic moving back and forth.

So, the A-bolt is the smoothest both in theory, and what I’ve observed.

 

[gorillastomp]

Once we get the slow fire bolts going hopefully soon. I would dump the tungsten bolts for what ever you can get out of them and buy a couple versions of ours. M11, and Mac 10.

 

[CoffeeFreak]

I must opine as I’ve tried all options.

The shorter A-bolt weighs a chunk less than the full size, and since neither hit the rear of the receiver (like an Ultimax doesn’t), which if it hit the backplate adds an impact dynamic, the universe must conclude due to physics the lesser weight object at the same rate of fire must impart less felt dynamic moving back and forth.

So, the A-bolt is the smoothest both in theory, and what I’ve observed.

There is more to it then the mass striking the rear of the receiver. There is also mass and velocity the bolt cycles and head spaces the case mouth and hits the trunion milliseconds before detonation. The full size bolt, while it had more mass has a much weaker spring if tuned correctly and travels much slower, impacting the detonating round and impacting the trunion much softer then the A1 bolt. Fire each bolt on an empty chaimber and you will see it. Ericoak is right. The full size bolt makes for less movement and is a little more accurate shooting with a lower ROF. The A1 bolt was slightly more forgiving of a tighter out of speck receivers because the lighter mass overcame the friction easier. Later second gen bolts and A1 bolts had an improved extractor angle we developed from results of Strobro32s and my testing of the prototype A1 bolt to make it reliable with 380 and smaller spec ejection windows. We were trying to make the 380 bolt and I told Tom, I think this could shoot 9MM in the baby mac reliably. He didn't believe me. I opened the bolt up a little for 9MM, and it ran 9MM better then 380 lol. I still have that bolt and all the other prototypes including a next gen A1 prototype made out of a different tungsten alloy. It's GOLDEN! Made out of a bronze tungsten alloy. I will have to dig them out and post pictures.

 

[Hey...]

So a heavier full size bolt hitting into battery, you say is lighter Felt than the smaller bolt hitting the same trunnion setup?

Fire each bolt on an empty chaimber and you will see it

I know you didn’t mean that quote stating the heavier full size bolt would impact the trunnion LESS than the smaller A, -as the larger bolt hitting from the same travel would hit with more felt force (it would, per physics).

You attached a cube to the CNC bolt. That one hit the back plate but was still a nice shooting experience. The Cobray bolt specs were available (online) as a word document. Vegas made the full tungsten version. He continued long after you sold your M11/9.

I’m just observing physics of all generations, and thinking how they compare as I’ve tried them all.

I stand by my previous post the A was the easiest.

 

[CoffeeFreak]

So a heavier full size bolt hitting into battery, you say is lighter Felt than the smaller bolt hitting the same trunnion setup, full size rpm to A-rpm?



I know you didn’t mean that quote as the heavier full size bolt would impact the trunnion LESS than the smaller A, -as the larger bolt hitting from the same travel would hit with more felt force (it would, per physics).

You attached a cube to the CNC bolt. I respect that. Thanks for that.

I’m just observing physics of all generations, and thinking how they compare.

It's velocity and mass. P=MV. The law of linear momentum and Newton's second law. The full size bolt tuned correctly just kisses the the trunnion, the A1 bolt wacks it. The full size bolt doesn't even have the momentum to function properly with the simi trip in. The A1 bolt will. The A1 bolt has a more powerful spring and faster travel. Longer faster stroke.

I know you weren't here when I developed the bolt or maybe not following the development, but I assure you, I know how they work. I know the science. I developed and tested ALL the bolts except I didn't test the Mac 10 bolt. I don't have the Mac 10. The first A1 bolt prototype was a cut down Gen 1.5. Like the one I sent to the NUTS shoot. TheColtCollector AKA Beau helped me run the torture test on the Gen-1, Gen-1.5, Gen-2 bolts. Tom came in as the distributor for the CF-W bolts in the second run of the Gen-2. Strobro32 and I tested the later prototype A1 bolts. I still have those bolts. Tom never tested or developed any of them. except testing the Mac 10 bolt. Sid T supplied the Mac 10 bolt and upper. I had the bolt drawn up and prototype produced. Tom sold them, as did Richard Lage and Practical solutions. I still have all the prototype bolts except for the Mac 10 bolt. Beau also tested that. Tom paid for that and sold it to Sid T, real name Brian Trois. I don't know what happened to it after Brian died. For what it's worth, Tom and I were best friends. Brian and I were also best friends. Beau and I are still good friends. Yes, Tom and the others continued to sell my bolts after I sold My M11-9 in 2021. The development stopped. Tom asked me if Sam could take over sales (Practical Solutions) and turned all stock over to Sam. Tom died a few months later of rabies. Tom was ill with something else. With my wife's cancer he didn't want to burden me too much with what it was, so I never found out but he suspected it was long Covid.

 

[Hey...]

Can you facilitate making any more of any pattern?

 

[CoffeeFreak]

Can you facilitate making any more of any pattern?

Practical Solutions has permission to order and sell the bolts at a price he sets. He is the only one. I own the drawings and CNC programming and have an agreement with the manufacturer only people I authorize can order and distribute them. The problem is the state the manufacturer is in is a liberal political minefield and they won't make them until the political winds change. Sam wants to sell them. He is a good fit. He just cant get them made right now. It's possible after the next elections things could change. I also gave Sam the rights to make and sell my Grey ghost uppers. He makes one every now and then but like the Lage uppers it's reached saturation. Everyone that wants one has one or three.

 

[Gaffshot]

Tom died of Rabies? That's crazy.

 

[Hey...]

Tom died of Rabies? That's crazy.

Bitten by a bat.

 

[Slowmo]

It's velocity and mass. P=MV. The law of linear momentum and Newton's second law. The full size bolt tuned correctly just kisses the the trunnion, the A1 bolt wacks it. The full size bolt doesn't even have the momentum to function properly with the simi trip in. The A1 bolt will. The A1 bolt has a more powerful spring and faster travel. Longer faster stroke.

I know you weren't here when I developed the bolt or maybe not following the development, but I assure you, I know how they work. I know the science. I developed and tested ALL the bolts except I didn't test the Mac 10 bolt. I don't have the Mac 10. The first A1 bolt prototype was a cut down Gen 1.5. Like the one I sent to the NUTS shoot. TheColtCollector AKA Beau helped me run the torture test on the Gen-1, Gen-1.5, Gen-2 bolts. Tom came in as the distributor for the CF-W bolts in the second run of the Gen-2. Strobro32 and I tested the later prototype A1 bolts. I still have those bolts. Tom never tested or developed any of them. except testing the Mac 10 bolt. Sid T supplied the Mac 10 bolt and upper. I had the bolt drawn up and prototype produced. Tom sold them, as did Richard Lage and Practical solutions. I still have all the prototype bolts except for the Mac 10 bolt. Beau also tested that. Tom paid for that and sold it to Sid T, real name Brian Trois. I don't know what happened to it after Brian died. For what it's worth, Tom and I were best friends. Brian and I were also best friends. Beau and I are still good friends. Yes, Tom and the others continued to sell my bolts after I sold My M11-9 in 2021. The development stopped. Tom asked me if Sam could take over sales (Practical Solutions) and turned all stock over to Sam. Tom died a few months later of rabies. Tom was ill with something else. With my wife's cancer he didn't want to burden me too much with what it was, so I never found out but he suspected it was long Covid.

CoffeeFreak,

Do you have any sense of how durable the CFW bolts are? It's my impression that the alloy is not as strong/hard as steel. With how expensive they have gotten, I'm a little concerned over whether the fixed firing pin may wear or break over time, and if so, whether it could be repaired or not.

 

[SecondAmend]

With respect to manufacturing, some of you may recall that a couple years ago a third party (an individual or company in Texas?) expressed interest in the independent manufacture of tungsten alloy bolts, but that apparently went nowhere. I suspect that the market is simply too small, the machine set up time too long, and tooling wear too extensive to make it worth doing.
MHO, YMMV, etc.