Gauging Interest in Tungsten Slow Fire Bolts

[dalbert]

har1340 said:
Wonder if the guys from Powder Springs had a bolt like this if they would have sold more M-11's back in the day?

Most definitely

What’s that rpm? 7-900

They would have sold thousands more and been way more popular

This is a conjectural argument that no one can win, but in my opinion, if these bolts were available back in the day, the effect on sales would have proved negligible.

I bought my M-11/9 NIB in 1988 for $450. I liked the high RPM. Still do. Subgun competitions at that time were primitive. Personal tastes, as well as innovation slowly changed to where we find ourselves today, and we can have an opinion that a tungsten bolt might have generated thousands of more MG sales for a failing company. Maybe it would have, but I really doubt it.

David Albert
dalbert@sturmgewehr.com

 

[Solo_CW]

Hey there, sorry to hear the bad news. I figured I'd give my two cents. It may be worth reaching out to Titans of CNC to see if they would be willing to pick up the job. I know they were able to help Brandon Herrera on his AK-50 with making the hand guards. So I'm assuming that they're okay with small batches.

Here's their website: https://titansofcnc.com/

Not affiliated or anything but I figured if anybody would be interested they would be.

 

[SecondAmend]

And also keep in mind, then as is the case today, tungsten has always been more expensive than steel by a fair margin. The problem with tungsten is not that is particularly rare, it's that there aren't any known areas of concentrated tungsten on earth. That means a lot of ore has to be dug out and then have the tungsten purified out which results in the high cost. The added cost of tungsten bolts then, as today, would have undoubtedly resulted in very few sales.

MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

 

[Gaujo]

And also keep in mind, then as is the case today, tungsten has always been more expensive than steel by a fair margin. The problem with tungsten is not that is particularly rare, it's that there aren't any known areas of concentrated tungsten on earth. That means a lot of ore has to be dug out and then have the tungsten purified out which results in the high cost. The added cost of tungsten bolts then, as today, would have undoubtedly resulted in very few sales.

MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

Is it extracted along with the iron etc? Ie is it a byproduct of regular ore processing?

 

[SecondAmend]

Is it extracted along with the iron etc? Ie is it a byproduct of regular ore processing?

I don't know the details of the processing used to concentrate ore that contains tungsten to a more pure tungsten state. But it has been my experience that so-called "high density tungsten powder" (as I have used for assembling D.I.Y. tungsten powder AR buffers) is definitely attracted by magnets; and in recent years is generally in a less dense (i.e., lower tungsten) level than what I bought about ten years ago.
MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

 

[Concorde]

As an alternative -- though not nearly as nice nor as slow -- you could go back to the first "hybrid" style bolt that CF made. Simpler machining and less tungsten, since it was tungsten only in the rear, and attached to a cut-down steel standard M11 bolt.

I own THREE of the CF-W type bolts... a Gen 1 (above), a Gen 2, and an "A" type bolt, all in different hosts/uppers. They're all great. See the old article at https://mac-11.info/review-cf.htm

 

[Gaujo]

I hadn't been to the site in a while Concord, so awesome!

 

[Gaujo]

Lage has warned against using them in the 31 series, on the s and SK series it's good to go, but the regular max uppers need a spacer

 

[DistalRadius]

I don't know the details of the processing used to concentrate ore that contains tungsten to a more pure tungsten state. But it has been my experience that so-called "high density tungsten powder" (as I have used for assembling D.I.Y. tungsten powder AR buffers) is definitely attracted by magnets; and in recent years is generally in a less dense (i.e., lower tungsten) level than what I bought about ten years ago.
MHO, YMMV, etc. Be well.

FYI, tungsten is paramagnetic and should therefore be weakly attracted to a permanent magnet. Tungsten carbide, however, is considered magnetic because it typically contains cobalt or nickel as a binder. These are both ferromagnetic (like iron) and impart their magnetic properties to the material.

 

[CoffeeFreak]

I'm sorry and disappointed to announce this project has stalled, for now. The fabricator of the bolts made us a beautiful sample bolt and I was awaiting current pricing to submit the Purchase Order and they came back to me to say they were unable to make the bolts for us. When I questioned them, the response I received is that they are too busy for a small project such as ours. They said they would be at least 6-8 months out and even then they were doubtful that they would be able to make them for us. We've looked into making the bolts in-house and it's not a realistic option for us. We'd have to re-tool and dedicate one of our machining centers exclusively to these bolts and the learning curve would be very expensive - so that's definitely not our first option. I have reached out to other manufacturers and I'm waiting to hear back from them. We are not yet giving up on this project, but I wanted to let everyone know that it's had a set back that may take some time to sort out.

And this is the nature of the manufacturing business in this post scamdemic era.

Stay tuned....t

Call me if you want me to call my rep there and find out the real story. I suspect it's acually a political decistion, she would be honest with me. Things could change after the next elections. 100 bolts was acually a pretty good size job for them and 75 should still be worth it to them. That being said there was only one machinest they trusted to make the bolts due to the tool changes and tolerences. The bits had to be changed every three bolts becuse the tungsten alloy would eat them up. They are the only company that can make them in quantity. I talked to other companies that said they could but we found them to be untrustworthy. I have to say I am a little sad to see you took CF-W off the bolt. It kind of erases me from the history of the development of it. That being said though, it's OK. Nobody will be remeberd forever.

 

[Slowmo]

Call me if you want me to call my rep there and find out the real story. I suspect it's acually a political decistion, she would be honest with me. Things could change after the next elections. 100 bolts was acually a pretty good size job for them and 75 should still be worth it to them. That being said there was only one machinest they trusted to make the bolts due to the tool changes and tolerences. The bits had to be changed every three bolts becuse the tungsten alloy would eat them up. They are the only company that can make them in quantity. I talked to other companies that said they could but we found them to be untrustworthy. I have to say I am a little sad to see you took CF-W off the bolt. It kind of erases me from the history of the development of it. That being said though, it's OK. Nobody will be remeberd forever.

I think no matter what it says on the bolt, no one will forget it’s your brain child.

 

[Concorde]

I think no matter what it says on the bolt, no one will forget it’s your brain child.

Absolutely -- and we're all grateful to Mike aka CF. I've also mentioned him in my review at

MAC-11.info

so folks will always be able to see his part in developing them and bringing them to market.

 

[SecondAmend]

M11-380 tungsten bolt with custom "covert ops" treatment:

 

[Rob1928]

Lage has warned against using them in the 31 series, on the s and SK series it's good to go, but the regular max uppers need a spacer

Gaujo, I did a search here and on Richard's page but didn't find any info. What was the concern? I've used one for a few years in a 31A and the bolt never bottoms out and it runs very smoothly. Hopefully I haven't been doing any harm.
Rob

 

[Slowmo]

Gaujo, I did a search here and on Richard's page but didn't find any info. What was the concern? I've used one for a few years in a 31A and the bolt never bottoms out and it runs very smoothly. Hopefully I haven't been doing any harm.
Rob

https://www.uzitalk.com/forums/index.php?threads/tungsten-bolt-in-max31a.99082/

Richard confirmed you should not do so and explains why at the above link, second post.

 

[Gaujo]

Call me if you want me to call my rep there and find out the real story. I suspect it's acually a political decistion, she would be honest with me. Things could change after the next elections. 100 bolts was acually a pretty good size job for them and 75 should still be worth it to them. That being said there was only one machinest they trusted to make the bolts due to the tool changes and tolerences. The bits had to be changed every three bolts becuse the tungsten alloy would eat them up. They are the only company that can make them in quantity. I talked to other companies that said they could but we found them to be untrustworthy. I have to say I am a little sad to see you took CF-W off the bolt. It kind of erases me from the history of the development of it. That being said though, it's OK. Nobody will be remeberd forever.

I would pay extra to get it to say:
PS-W, V-SMG, CF-W

 

[MACsAlot]

Call me if you want me to call my rep there and find out the real story. I suspect it's acually a political decistion, she would be honest with me. Things could change after the next elections. 100 bolts was acually a pretty good size job for them and 75 should still be worth it to them. That being said there was only one machinest they trusted to make the bolts due to the tool changes and tolerences. The bits had to be changed every three bolts becuse the tungsten alloy would eat them up. They are the only company that can make them in quantity. I talked to other companies that said they could but we found them to be untrustworthy. I have to say I am a little sad to see you took CF-W off the bolt. It kind of erases me from the history of the development of it. That being said though, it's OK. Nobody will be remeberd forever.

We'd be happy to take you up on the offer to contact them. I will send you an email letting you know who we were dealing with. We agree with continuing with the same fabricator and although we have found other companies that say they can do it, we are hesitant to make a change. We'd love to have these made so that the legacy can continue.

We are sorry that removing the "CF" saddens you, we didn't mean any harm or insult. We have always given full credit where it was due, but we changed the name for 2 reasons. 1 - so that consumers could easily distinguish the origins of the bolts i.e. what Tom had manufactured and what Practical Solutions will have manufactured. 2 - although on the surface it looks like the same bolt, the dimensions and tooling to be used is all different. We changed some of the specs around (using standard/common sized tooling) so that it would be cheaper to machine and therefore less costly to the end consumer.

Again, we didn't mean any disrespect and we would love your help.

t

 

[Krink545]

Thanks for the update and effort to make this happen.
While mine usually runs in this configuration I'd be interested in slowing it down occasionally.

 

[Doobis]

Wishing yall luck on getting some new bolts to market. I have fully enjoyed my CFW-a bolt I got from Tom. Between the CFW bolt and Lage's offerings I feel like I have 4-5 machineguns in one.

 

[LawBob]

Wishing yall luck on getting some new bolts to market. I have fully enjoyed my CFW-a bolt I got from Tom. Between the CFW bolt and Lage's offerings I feel like I have 4-5 machineguns in one.

The only thing better than that setup in the pic is if you put the scope on the suppressor like Snake