Is it small or large mag well
- Thread starter Gaffshot
- Start date
The one you have coming is a small mag well. you can tell by looking at the back of teh grip if its about 1/2 short of the stock release its a small. If its right at its a large. You need the small magwell mags usually associated with the RPB guns. The FTF mags that are for SWD are for the later SWD that have the same magwell as the m11/9
MitchWerbellsGhost87
UZI Talk Life Member
If it’s an SWD marked gun then 99.99999% it is a LARGE magwell gun. SWD didn’t make any small magwell guns that I know of. I have seen small Magwell guns that were papered by SWD, but they were RPB “SSM11” marked guns that were originally sold as title 1 open bolt “single shot” M11s until the ATF decided they were actually machine guns. SWD ended up building the RPB SSM11 marked guns up into SMGs. I have seen a large grip RPB marked gun sold by SWD, but I have only ever seen one photo of a “small grip” SWD gun that was supposedly original, but I don’t believe it was. The parkerizing on the lower was all wrong color, very light grey, almost like zinc phosphate, total mismatch to the upper, and didn’t look like any SWD park job I’ve ever seen. But I digress…. As far as I am concerned, SWD never made or sold small magwell guns that had the SWD rollmark on them other than the semi auto M12 .380. The SWD papered RPB guns have “SWD INC” under the plastic grip on the bottom of the receiver. If someone can prove me wrong and provide a photo of a factory original SWD M11A1 marked gun with a small magwell (that has the original factory swd BLACK phosphate ) I’ll eat my hat.
Last edited:
3154tm
UZI Talk Supporter
This is not accurate at all. SWD did in fact make small magwell M11a1. Somewhere between 200 and 300 of them in 1985 before switching the large magwell. Gaffshot gun along with mine that were purchased a few weeks ago came out of a very large mg estate. Gaffshot gun is like new and mine has a refinished lower but maybe its original since it looks black, but they are SWD roll stamped and small magwell. I'll post a pic once I get to it later this week. It is now at my SOT. Also there are other posts of old on here that disprove or prove that SWD did in fact make small grip guns that were not RPB stamped that I found when I was researching these guns after purchasing
It used to be customary when selling a mg or smg the seller would include at least one magazine with the firearm.
I understand these guns are coming out of an estate, but still I would think including a mag would be the proper way to sell any firearm that required a bit of a specialty mag.
But I am older and maybe thats not the way it's done anymore.
I understand these guns are coming out of an estate, but still I would think including a mag would be the proper way to sell any firearm that required a bit of a specialty mag.
But I am older and maybe thats not the way it's done anymore.
MitchWerbellsGhost87
UZI Talk Life Member
Not to hijack the thread… but thank you for posting pics of this. Do you have some better pics of the welds at the grip? Maybe it’s just me but the welds look a little different than usual? is it welded around the top perimeter of the grip like a powder springs gun or is it just the photo tricking me?here is pic of mine that I just bought. Gaffshot is exactly the same but in nicer shape and looks original finish
I guess making a bold statement is what it took to get people to finally come out of the wood work and share some pics of these. I have asked about this a few times and told that they existed but nobody ever was able to provide an actual photo of one besides the one your buddy shared that looked like the finish was not original to the gun ( very light gray for an SWD finish). Looking at it again I suppose maybe it’s not as light as I thought the first time around but I will say it certainly does look to be a different shade of parkerizing than I’ve ever seen on any of the SWD SMGs.
They used “pre-black” solution prior to the manganese phosphate, to make the parkerizing on the SMGs black instead of gray, I don’t believe they did this on most of the semi autos, just the SMGs as far as I can tell. Your gun does not look to have the original finish either (the frame looks painted?) but I’ll take your word for it. I’m not sure if maybe I’m just seeing things with that grip weld. These are the only 2 I’ve been able to find pics of so far… the other one having been the one I’ve already seen that I commented on previously.
I’d love to see more of these 2-300 documented small magwell SWD M11A1s. Pretty wild that there’s hundreds of them out there but finding a single photo of one is nearly impossible, and that includes 100s of issues of 1980s gun magazines,RPB/SWD sales literature, catalogs, dozens of issues of vintage shotgun news, the internet, you name it.
It’s also odd that these are earlier than the large magwell guns, but one of them features the CNC machined bolt that wasn’t introduced until late in 1985 IIRC. As far as I know, the earliest of the SWD M11A1 guns, even the early large grips, used an RPB M11 cast bolt (like yours) and they milled the bolt open a little on the bottom for use with the zytel magazines. I have even seen a photo of an early SWD large grip that was built on an RPB SSM11 frame, with the RPB cast bolt.
So it’s odd to me that these small grip guns are the earliest of the SWDs, but that one somehow has the later bolt design that wasn’t introduced until they had been a bit further into production. I only say this because that is a NIB gun which means the bolt was not replaced at some point.
I wish I could find a photo of one of these small grip SWD guns that actually looks like it has an original SWD finish. SWD SMGs are probably the best matching, nicest looking park jobs out of all the different MACs. It’s not hard to spot an SWD built TX M10A1 or powder springs M10 in a group, or any SWD mac for that matter, because they are almost always a very nice dark black finish that matches. SWD sold their phosphate solution and pre-black solution to the public and took a lot of pride in their finishes (in the early days at least).
Anyway I guess I stand corrected, but would still like to see more proof of these existing, maybe one that has the original SWD dark phosphate finish.
Now let’s get back to helping OP figure out which mags he needs.
Here’s a couple early SWD large grip guns with the leftover modified RPB cast bolts, they are very rare and pics are hard to come by
Here’s a large grip RPB SSM11A1 “single shot” frame that was built up and sold by SWD as an SMG. I think the earliest of SWD papered M11s were the leftover RPB single shot frames that they had to sell as MGs. It seems at some point while still selling the leftover RPB frames, they decided to transition over to the large magwell. I’m not sure how many of these there were, they are not common. This is the only one I’ve ever seen like this but the TIG weld at the trigger guard and the finish are consistent with a factory gun.
Here’s another interesting one. Another very early SWD .380 offering, this time it’s an RPB SSM11A1 frame with the original small magwell, assembled with SWD components, and finished by SWD. Note SWD “cobray” marked sytrofoam instead of the older “Ingram” as sold by RPB, and the SWD 11/9 stock.
And here’s a few more SWD guns just because I love their finishes. If someone has an SWD marked small grip that’s consistent with the original SWD parkerizing seen in these photos, please share a pic! One of these is a 1983 factory SWD M11/9 .380 SMG, interesting gun with a transitional CNC machined bolt that still used the old cast m11 extractor.
Last edited:
My form 4 was approved already (march 8 to march 14) So i will be picking it up tomorrow and can get some better pics. I found all my info from google searches and the article i found was that possibly SWD acquired some small grip already done by RPB or possibly had a pile of small grips to use up and therefore did a run. I cant speak to the finish maybe they were experimenting. I just don't see collector value in these guns regardless as long as its got a serial number on the registry and it runs lol. In addition the SOT that sold them has been in business for 30 years and acted like this was not uncommon and he has handled them in the past as well. I think maybe no one is looking at them at the detail you are. Only a very small fraction of the guns in circulation are on this forum or would even post one.
Offmarksman
UZI Talk Life Member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2010
- Messages
- 797
I have a large magwell m12 (semi version). I will post some pics later. I’ve never seen another one like it…
Over the years I'd say it's safe to say alot of the short run SWD small magwell guns have come through the forum.
Problem is owners have moved on.
Server has lost tons of threads over the years. And with that goes a,lot of pix.
And most importantly like OffMarksman
Not many of us see these as collectables.
The paper is whats worth money along with a little line of stamped serial numbers on the receiver.
So much so a whole pile of at the time worthless M11/9's were taken out of the registry when that SOT was busted putting them on beltfeds.
And that wasn't all that long ago 10 years maybe now?
Anywho most of us just see these as shoooters.
Prime example of that is the 11/15 barrel thread.
Look at the round count on a few of these MAC guns.
These are probably the most shot transferable guns out there.
Wish I would have known about the sale.
Who cares no mags I'd just stuck a Lage upper of some sort on it.
And delt with finding OEM mags later .
Nice guns guys and great prices.
Problem is owners have moved on.
Server has lost tons of threads over the years. And with that goes a,lot of pix.
And most importantly like OffMarksman
Not many of us see these as collectables.
The paper is whats worth money along with a little line of stamped serial numbers on the receiver.
So much so a whole pile of at the time worthless M11/9's were taken out of the registry when that SOT was busted putting them on beltfeds.
And that wasn't all that long ago 10 years maybe now?
Anywho most of us just see these as shoooters.
Prime example of that is the 11/15 barrel thread.
Look at the round count on a few of these MAC guns.
These are probably the most shot transferable guns out there.
Wish I would have known about the sale.
Who cares no mags I'd just stuck a Lage upper of some sort on it.
And delt with finding OEM mags later .
Nice guns guys and great prices.
Most of the guys that I shot machineguns with back in the late 80's through the mid-late 90's have long since moved to other hobbies and dont visit gun forums much anymore. Several of them collected the 380 macs at the time. I wish I still had access to those collections and could look for some of these rarer examples. Those guys moved on to other types of collectables like cars, old planes and Rolex's.
Offmarksman
UZI Talk Life Member
- Joined
- Sep 1, 2010
- Messages
- 797
Came with a plastic mag. There are 2 digits left on the serial number. I am in the process of cloning it with another m12 to have, as it’s handy to use the same mags as the m11.
3154tm
UZI Talk Supporter
fwiw, the guy i bought that gun from said he was a retiring CIII selling out the last of his inventory. supposedly, this gun was from a pallet load he'd bought back in the day from one of the bankruptcies. i know, you buy the gun and not the story. but this gun was about as immaculate as it could be NIB. at the time i didn't know anything about these other than it was just about the cheapest FA you could buy. i paid $2900 for it and thought that was outrageous.
Gaujo
UZI Talk Supporter
Yes I learned this the hard way when I almost purchased a small well SWD m11a1 when looking for a large magwell.
MitchWerbellsGhost87
UZI Talk Life Member
Man this is frustrating! So apparently there’s a handful of the small magwell SWDs out there but they are just very rare. I would still love to see a confirmed NIB example that doesn’t look like it’s been tampered with in some way.
I have no choice but to believe they exist with so many members being adamant they have seen them in the past, but damn if they are not extremely elusive.
I have to admit though, it seems very odd to me that they made any small grip guns considering the switch to large grip occured so early on that they were still working with RPB SSM11 marked frames (using up old RPB inventory) and slapping large grips on them. Which would make me think that by 1984-85 they were making the SWD marked frames and only using large grips at that point.
I do know that Wayne Daniel was very much invested in his zytel mags and did not want to make guns that utilized anything else. 90% of the SWD Mac’s used the zytel mag, the other 10% were a handful of .45 M10 builds (and apparently small grip 380s). Even Wayne’s 9mm M10s were redesigned with a single feed bolt so he could sell them with the zytels.
Now I do know they used the small grip on the M12 semi auto but that wasn’t until 1992, and those frames were advertised as not having been manufactured since 1982 when they came out.
SWD’s bound book does not give any details as to finish, magwell, anything, just the SN and caliber, so there is no way of ever knowing for sure unless one is discovered in its original box totally unfired and unmolested.
As for this one. The upper looks like the usual rough sand blasted SWD black phosphate finish, and the lower looks to be bead blasted and finished. It’s possible they were finished at seperate times and slapped together from parts bins. Serial number is 1985 and it has the later bolt style as well, very odd that a gun from so late in the game has a small magwell. They were already well into large magwell M11A1 production by that point. Nice looking gun and it certainly does look like it’s in new condition and the styrofoam insert is clean too.
I have no choice but to believe they exist with so many members being adamant they have seen them in the past, but damn if they are not extremely elusive.
I have to admit though, it seems very odd to me that they made any small grip guns considering the switch to large grip occured so early on that they were still working with RPB SSM11 marked frames (using up old RPB inventory) and slapping large grips on them. Which would make me think that by 1984-85 they were making the SWD marked frames and only using large grips at that point.
I do know that Wayne Daniel was very much invested in his zytel mags and did not want to make guns that utilized anything else. 90% of the SWD Mac’s used the zytel mag, the other 10% were a handful of .45 M10 builds (and apparently small grip 380s). Even Wayne’s 9mm M10s were redesigned with a single feed bolt so he could sell them with the zytels.
Now I do know they used the small grip on the M12 semi auto but that wasn’t until 1992, and those frames were advertised as not having been manufactured since 1982 when they came out.
SWD’s bound book does not give any details as to finish, magwell, anything, just the SN and caliber, so there is no way of ever knowing for sure unless one is discovered in its original box totally unfired and unmolested.
As for this one. The upper looks like the usual rough sand blasted SWD black phosphate finish, and the lower looks to be bead blasted and finished. It’s possible they were finished at seperate times and slapped together from parts bins. Serial number is 1985 and it has the later bolt style as well, very odd that a gun from so late in the game has a small magwell. They were already well into large magwell M11A1 production by that point. Nice looking gun and it certainly does look like it’s in new condition and the styrofoam insert is clean too.
Last edited:
Please Visit our Sister Sites Below
Please consider becoming an UZI Talk Supporter