Re: M10/47 SABRE Upper

[Battering ram NIB]

as more rifle uppers come out this is going to be a problem to be solved by someone.....how big of a hole can you drill and still have a strong receiver

or your going to have to pick which rifle upper you want.

the best idea is to just buy multiple Mac 10's.....at $6-7k they are much cheaper than M16's and Ak47's.....when $1500-$2,000 extra can turn them into one(sort of)

all this stuff has made me consider buying a M11 to go along with my M10 while they are still low priced to give me more options

 

[jkacg1]

http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?84842-M11-15-Prototype/page13

look at #244...he talks about it being better lower......

im not trying to be an Ahole bringing this up and wreck your sales....

Thanks for making it easy to find. I started rereading that thread yesterday after your post, but I didn't make it that far in. Frankly, I am really hoping Richard makes an AK upper, as I am sure it would be far superior to the SABRE. He was asked that question also, but I haven't seen him respond yet to that question. I have stated before, I am not selling or manufacturing these. I am simply interested in having one and I thought there may be others interested in building one also. My thinking was that we could get a price break having the receivers machined at the same time. I have since determined to simply build one for myself. I have talked with a local firearms manufacturer who will be creating some of the components for me. He has expressed interest in selling the uppers if we can get my prototype completed and running reliably. I am not affiliated with his business, although I am a good customer (I would like to think that he would agree!). I will keep the thread updated as I make progress. My budget just hit a wall though. Today I ran across a deal on a Powder Springs M10 that was simply too good to pass up.

 

[jkacg1]

Protolabs will not machine the 2 halves of the upper. No amount of discussion would persuade them that these parts did not fall under the GCA. I will be moving forward with the 3D printing and then seek out another CNC manufacturer to handle the 2 halves. (Note to self: Rename the file something other than " 2 halves updated ak-47").

 

[mak91]

Protolabs will not machine the 2 halves of the upper. No amount of discussion would persuade them that these parts did not fall under the GCA. I will be moving forward with the 3D printing and then seek out another CNC manufacturer to handle the 2 halves. (Note to self: Rename the file something other than " 2 halves updated ak-47").

This is the same problem that I ran into last year when I was looking for a shop to make the sear catches. If they found out it was a gun part they they walked away, if they found out it was a machine gun part they ran away. Even after I made them the heat treaters wanted no part of it. I told the heat treater that I ended up using that the parts were "for a machine". He didn't ask what kind of machine and I didn't tell him anything more.

 

[Gaujo]

That's crazy. I don't see why.

 

[A&S Conversions]

That's crazy. I don't see why.

You're kidding right? (He says sarcastically) ATF involvement, and the increased cost of a lawyer to deal with a Federal Agency, liability of building anything to do with firearm parts come to mind. If what is made blows up, even if it is the fault of the retail buyer, everybody get sued who had anything to do with the project. Most businesses want to avoid lawsuits, lawyers, and court costs. An AR-15 or M16 still has an occasional out of battery and that is a closed bolt system. So I would think an open bolt version would be more likely to have an OOB. A firearm manufacturer would have liability insurance for such a contingency. A small machine shop that isn't in the firearms manufacture wouldn't.

At one time I owned a one man on site welding business. I have liability insurance for my business. But in my policy an exclusion was written for building or repairing trailer hitches. Why, because that $100 weld up the crack in the hitch job could bring me huge liability if that hitch I repaired failed. So the insurance company wrote in that exclusion. If that machine shop contacted their insurance provider and asked about building a few parts for a machinegun, what would the likely response be? I doubt it would be an offer to lower their premium. YMMV.

Scott

 

[Gaujo]

I guess I didn't think about it like that. These days it's all about covering yourself.

 

[Captain murrica]

You would think a simple disclaimer would cover their backside. No guarantees to customer these will function as a gun part. We do not recommend nor condone the use of said part in any firearm, any use in or for firearm realated reasons will be at the sole liability of the end user and not (insert company name here). But we live in a goofy world so nothing can be that easy.

 

[BuffDragon]

You would think a simple disclaimer would cover their backside. No guarantees to customer these will function as a gun part. We do not recommend nor condone the use of said part in any firearm, any use in or for firearm realated reasons will be at the sole liability of the end user and not (insert company name here). But we live in a goofy world so nothing can be that easy.

a good lawyer can go thru almost any "disclaimer", etc.
I mean, "solvent trap" people with all their disclaimers are getting shut down. same thing. someone wants to tear up your disclaimer, they will with ease.
event then, you'll often be spending money just to prove you shouldnt be involved anyways.
its a lose - lose most of the time.

 

[SecondAmend]

If a company has all the business it can handle making parts with virtually no liability, why would they take on jobs making parts with potential liability?

I've come across a similar thing with trying to find a local range that will allow full auto shooting. They tell me they get enough business as it is, and don't want the risk, even with the added ammo sales they'd get.

MHO, YMMV, etc.

 

[jkacg1]

We are getting close on the final drawings for the prototype, and we have a 3D Print shop lined up to produce a model. I received my 3D printed parts from gotgraham's Shapeway store today, and just remembered that there is one more part that I need to send a money order for. After ensuring that the 3D printed model is good to go, I will be looking for a CNC shop to do the receiver halves. Again, if anyone has any leads on this, I would greatly appreciate it!

 

[quasimodem]

have we got a better cost yet? I have an m10 and would be interested in knowing the total price at the current count.

QM

 

[jkacg1]

Protolabs will not machine the parts so I am looking for another manufacturer. I got the updated drawings last night and will be doing a 3D printed version to verify that everything works before proceeding. Once the drawings are verified, I will be finding a shop to produce the receiver halves for a prototype set.

 

[root]

Why not just buy your own machine.
For CNC these guys come to mind.

https://www.tormach.com/

While I don't have anything CNC I do have all my own machines.

They have all paid for themselves after just a few jobs that would have been sourced out.
When you figure what a shop wants to do a job or in your case just finding a shop willing to do it, it really is cheaper to just own your own machines.

So these uppers are worth what 2500 a good tormach is only 8412.00 bux.
https://www.tormach.com/store/index...how&ref=PCNC1100_Packages_Starter&portrelay=1
Say 10K after some other small items Hell make it 12 K just to be safe.

That's 5 uppers and the machine is paid for.

With the way the laws are, ITAR , all the other BATFE shit, with building, manufacturing, build parties, and what ever else you want to throw in there
You need to pretty much own your own machines nowdays just to stay inside the law.

And I'm sure it's one reason why no one wants to touch these either. They are tool & die shops NOT SOT's
Huge difference there when it comes to making parts.

Parts are parts, gun parts are regulated.

Rich

 

[Gaujo]

I'm not sure about that. My understanding is gun upper only parts aren't regulated. I do want a CNC machine now though.

 

[Vector 9mm]

I've talked with Jason and plan to make a prototype off the drawings that he is having done. I know some machine shops that would more than likely be interested in making the components for the M10/47 upper.

That being said, I plan to explore the idea of building a belt fed upper using the same gas and recoil system as we all know that it has been approved by ATF. When having a discussion with one of the tech guys at ATF-NFA, he told me that as long as I follow existing recoil/buffer system designs that are approved, then there wouldn't be any issue. The other part of this ordeal that would help is my M10/9 get approved soon......today makes 9 months....

 

[Gaujo]

That being said, I plan to explore the idea of building a belt fed upper using the same gas and recoil system as we all know that it has been approved by ATF.

It keeps getting better. Please coordinate all these back plate holes for interoperability.

 

[Vector 9mm]

When I bought a CNC Mill for work, I had a budget for $20,000. The machine was $9,000 and the tooling was $12,000.....Tooling costs is where you will get eaten alive. Not to mention you need a good understanding of programing with some systems.

 

[root]

.Tooling costs is where you will get eaten alive. Not to mention you need a good understanding of programing with some systems.

I hear ya there.
I bought my lathe used and it came with every last thing you could ever need some were even doubles.
Bough the mill new and tooling for that gets bought as I need it. I even started out with making my own T bolt & nuts and other hold downs until I got a proper vise.
I have a long ways to go with mill tooling before it's what I would consider complete.

I programmed M and G code nack in the mid 90's for a shop. Also did some of it for the local quarries with the water jet saws and thermals.

I see the new interfaces and it would be like learning all over for me now since I am no longer in the programming field.

A belt fed would be cool!
and a localized hole for these uppers would be even better.

Rich

 

[xdamagedx]

All these talks about drilling a hole still. Would there be a way of using the holes for the stock?