Best way into an M-16

[davep32618]

All,

I have an Uzi and love it, but I prefer the versatility of the M16 or AR15 conversion. Here lies my problem, my Uzi is a bolt gun, which I have no problems with, no regrets and a potential buyer, who would easily give me what I have into it.

That said, I could probably go to $9-11k, BUT I am intrigued by solutions that cost less SWD LL for one. I know the pros and cons, so what I need are good financial reasons for spending extra money on a RR. I think MGs are over priced, so I always want something that does what I need it to do for the least amount of money. This is in the beginning stages, but this group in general is awesome, so I would really appreciate some opinions. Yes, I see similar posts come up all the time, but now it is MY money, so I want your opinions directed toward me.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[TrippHammer]

My opinion.
I'm a collector / dealer

1st choice Colt M-16A1 in original configure
&
2nd choice Colt Ar-15/SP-1 registered receiver

I personally would never purchase a DIAS or R-Lightning link

I'm more of a pureist, the guy's I hang w/ appreciate nice guns
mostly in original configure. I've alway's appreciated craftmanship.

Colt made nice rifles and I love them. Everything else is not a Colt.

DIAS & RLL are nice paperweights to me, no matter how many uppers and lowers you can use.

My opinion.:m16s

 

[davep32618]

Tripplehammer, thanks for the quick response, but...

WHY? Purist views don't really count. I am a shooter first, collector second, every gun in my family has been shot. So what I want to make sure I do is not waste my money on an option that fails me. So, can a LL be repaired, what about an RDIAS? Obviously a RR has it advantages when it comes to repair. What are the failure rates? Has anyone here ever personally lost out on a LL or RDIAS???

Thanks,

Dave

 

[gt3499a]

I am not a purist. My RLL works like a champ and alows me to "make my own" mgs. This is the only option short of becoming a class 2 for me. If I was 30 years older I would have built mgs on form 1's.

 

[davep32618]

I am not a purist. My RLL works like a champ and alows me to "make my own" mgs. This is the only option short of becoming a class 2 for me. If I was 30 years older I would have built mgs on form 1's.

Please elaborate a little more, do you mean switching uppers? I just want to know what all my options are, once I have the base weapon.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[MarkV]

i'm not a collector, i'm an enthusiast that goes for the stupid grin factor and just likes things that go bang. while i appreciate fine specimen kept for posterity life is to short to horde up pretty baubles.

maybe one day i may pick up another lower or dias. i start thinking "poor me it's just such a pain to be swapping between uppers all the time", and then reality kicks in to say that's an awfully expensive convenience. i admit that i've considered selling the uzi for another 16 lower but keep returning to really liking the uzi package i've put together and deciding to keep it.

i'm not much on the LL, it just seems flimsy and prone to breakage even with kns reinforcement but i'd seriously consider a dias when you look at many of the offerings out there. a dias is pretty solid and can be installed in any throw away host or used with some of the modular designs. lately i sometimes wistfully dream of a dias for something like a lwrc sabr; i know it's not sensible but i'm okay with it. current prices seem to be a premium for a dias though, maybe because of the flexibility.

i don't know if there are good financial reasons to tie up money in mg's or smg's. i know the roi has been pretty good if you're turning them over but the truth is that it all could be a pen stroke away from being worthless; either out right ban (simply a discontinuation of transfers) or possibly another amnesty (highly unlikely). at current prices it's a real risk that you could lose some or all your money from an investment perspective, so i "try" to enjoy each & every trigger pull. on the other hand these things seem to only become more expensive over time.

All,

I have an Uzi and love it, but I prefer the versatility of the M16 or AR15 conversion. Here lies my problem, my Uzi is a bolt gun, which I have no problems with, no regrets and a potential buyer, who would easily give me what I have into it.

That said, I could probably go to $9-11k, BUT I am intrigued by solutions that cost less SWD LL for one. I know the pros and cons, so what I need are good financial reasons for spending extra money on a RR. I think MGs are over priced, so I always want something that does what I need it to do for the least amount of money. This is in the beginning stages, but this group in general is awesome, so I would really appreciate some opinions. Yes, I see similar posts come up all the time, but now it is MY money, so I want your opinions directed toward me.

Thanks,

Dave

 

[TrippHammer]

I think it's ironic that you wanted opinions, yet when I give you my opinion it doesn't count because its a "purist" opinion.....lol:nutkick

I guess I coined "pureist", but I could have said traditionalist or what ever.

Heck, I shoot my M-16's just as much as the next guy. I enjoy them just as much and I feel confident that when I want to sell them I will get at least what I paid for them, probably more.

When considering a purchase I would think that's a valid point in considering the purchase.

Hopefully you'll enjoy and feel satisfied w/ what ever you purchase.

Good luck :kill

 

[Vegas SMG]

How about this? I sold my Vector Uzi and never looked back. The '16 is one of the last guns I'll ever sell... ever. Most of the handguns, rifles, shotguns, just about everything will go before the '16. That's how much I like it. Knowing what I know today, I'd go;
RDIAS 1st.
Factory gun 2nd
Clone 3rd
LL4th

My two cents.

Knowing that you want to keep costs down, I'd personally bypass the RLL and wouldn't hesitate to buy a nice RR clone. I know you'll be happy.

 

[gt3499a]

Please elaborate a little more, do you mean switching uppers? I just want to know what all my options are, once I have the base weapon.

Thanks,

Dave

With a link or dias you can just drop it into the host. Dont have to change uppers. Maybe you like a different magwell, grip, sling, stock, and so on between a shorty 9mm, midlength 300 whisper, or a 223 carbine........they can be pretty different animals

I would personally prefer a dias but they are almost twice as much. I wish someone had registered an extra 10k of them, but who has the foresight to know what will happen

 

[amphibian]

Knowing what I know today, I'd go;
RDIAS 1st.
Factory gun 2nd
Clone 3rd
LL4th

My two cents.

Knowing that you want to keep costs down, I'd personally bypass the RLL and wouldn't hesitate to buy a nice RR clone. I know you'll be happy.

+1
Except I'd add the RR Colt SP1's and SS Group lowers to the Mix
RDIAS 1st.
SS Group/Naurmco lower 2nd
Factory gun 3rd
RR Colt SP1 that has been converted to small pin by Norrell or Klos 4th
Clone 5th
RR Colt SP1 still large hole 6th
RLL 7th


I'm a shooter then a collector.
I've got a RDIAS that I traded for my old RR Colt SP1 that was converted to small pin by Norrell.
Best NFA related decision I've ever made.
I still also have a Colt 614 factory MG. That would go before my RDIAS due to it's versatility.

I've never had timing problems with my RDIAS.
I timed it once when I first got it and never did it again.

Note that with a RLL you currently don't have any options for a 22LR conversion if that interests you. M60Joe was working on modifying the Ciener kit but don't know if he has succeeded yet.

I assume you already know that the RLL is FA only unless you use the select fire kit that was developed by Scott Bell.
So you could have multiple hosts with semi FCG's installed and just drop you link in and go (provided you have the appropriate Bolt Carrier).
But I think that is a moot point. If I had a RLL, I'd just have the KNS reinforcer and have everything in an MGI lower w/ the select fire group installed. I don't see the real point of moving to another lower w/ the flexibility of the MGI lower unless of course it is damaged or you want to switch to a lower w/ a different stock.

Regarding the bolt carrier, depending on what configuration you are trying to shoot take note that you may have difficulty locating a RLL ready carrier or bolt to trip your RLL so you may have to get a machinist to do some work for you whereas w/ a RR or RDIAS you won't have that problem.

Maybe if you tell us what calibers/configurations you are interested in we can give you better answers.

 

[Quarterbore]

I may be the exception, but I would never sell my LL and add the extra money needed to buy a RR or DIAS. Perhaps someday I may have the money to add a RR or DIAS but that is a low priority given that I have the LL!

The advantage for me with the LL is that I have a bunch of weapons that can use it. I have rifles set up in the AR-15A2, M4A3, Midlength Carbine, and AR-15 pistol all in 223 and they all run the link just fine.

I also have complete AR-15s in 9mm, 300 Whipser, and 7.62x39 and the LL runs them just fine too!

I also have the AR-47 and I have to be honest I don't have an SP-1 carrier cut to to use with the AK-47 mags BUT that gun is completely capable of being run with the LL.

Lastly, as I have posted before, the AR-10 can be driven by the LL. I have not done it to my own guns as frankly I find shooting 223 expensive enough but it is a nice option for those with more money to burn then I have. You can't drive an AR-10 with a DIAS or RR!

The only thing the LL does not do in the AR-15 system is the 22 conversions. I addressed that by buying a Norrell 10/22 trigger pack as the 10/22 is a better 22 then any AR-15 converted to shoot 22lr!

The DIAS can be moved from host to host but timing them is tricky. The LL drops in any gun and at most you may need a slightly thicker or thinner paddle depending on the way the carrier is cut.

So, what advantage does the RR have over the LL, only the 22 conversion in my oppinion. As for select fire, I have select fire kits in all my AR-15 lowers as there is no way to get one of these lowers to shoot full auto without the link installed. I just have a selector that gives me SAFE/SEMI/SEMI until the link is installed. Then I get SAFE/SEMI/AUTO when the link is dropped in there.

 

[amphibian]

The DIAS can be moved from host to host but timing them is tricky. The LL drops in any gun and at most you may need a slightly thicker or thinner paddle depending on the way the carrier is cut.

Yes, you are the exception.

I've got two friends w/ RLL one of them also has multiple factory Colts and a RDIAS. He leaves his RLL in only one config.
Both have had more issues w/ timing than with a RDIAS or RR.

As I mentioned, I only timed mine once and have never had issues.
I also have known a lot more people with RDIAS and everyone that I've communicated with either had no issues with timing or resolved them quickly with a little help.

One of the RLL owners also had part of his link break and he was also using the KNS re-enforcer which I think saved it. It is still working though thanks to the re-enforcer.

You say yourself that you may need a thicker/thinner paddle.
With a rounded trip on a RDIAS, you don't have to worry about changing anything like you have to do w/ your RLL (different paddles).

I don't know how you can say a timing a RDIAS is tricky. Timing a RLL is trickyER, IMHO.
With a RDIAS, you are dealing w/ all factory FA parts except for the sear body/trip itself so that plus how snugly it interfaces with the lug or the lower are the two variables you have to worry about.

With a RLL, unless you are working with an old Colt carrier or some other carrier that happens to be MADE from the factory to work with a RLL, then you are dealing with a carrier that somebody milled out to work with a RLL that is variable #1.
Then you have different paddles w/ different thicknesses to deal with and that is multiple variables for each paddle you have.
You also have to worry about how much each paddle flexes...yet more variables for each paddle you have.
Too many variables for my tastes.

Another issue is that if you do use the select fire kit for the RLL, now you link will have fight two disconnector springs for FA functioning which is putting more stress on your link. I think the KNS re-enforcer is a must for that configuration.

I also had a Norrell FA 22LR which I sold years ago to get my old RR SP1 and used the Ciener kit. So glad I did that. My Ciener kit works just as good as my old Norrell. Not one regret on that.

Only thing I'm missing out on is .308 capability w/ the RLL but as you said, with the ammo prices the way they are it is not a priority on my list. MGI is working on that for use w/ their lower so it may be an option for RDIAS users in the future but I'm not chomping at the bit for it.

I'm not trying to discourage anyone from the RLL. Of course they can be made to work and work very well and if that is all I could afford, I'd get one also. With today's prices I don't think I could afford a RLL either.
Regardless, IMHO, it is inferior to a RR or RDIAS for the reasons I mentioned above.

My 2 cents.

 

[Quarterbore]

Hey, I don't mind being the odd-man-out :goofygrin

As for carriers, most of mine are Colt SP1 carriers and I have been collecting them for a long time. They are expensive! Just the same, DPMS carriers also work with the LL unmodified... I think I have one of these in one of my guns but I am not sure which...

I do use the KNS protector with my link... I think anybody that doesn't use one is a fool!

Either way, a LL is more fun then an AR-15... at the range, you would not be able to tell the differnce from my gun running the link then a gun using a DIAS and other then the extra pin in the RR it would look the same and work the same as either the DIAS or RR.

 

[gt3499a]

Hey, I don't mind being the odd-man-out :goofygrin

As for carriers, most of mine are Colt SP1 carriers and I have been collecting them for a long time. They are expensive! Just the same, DPMS carriers also work with the LL unmodified... I think I have one of these in one of my guns but I am not sure which...

I do use the KNS protector with my link... I think anybody that doesn't use one is a fool!

Either way, a LL is more fun then an AR-15... at the range, you would not be able to tell the differnce from my gun running the link then a gun using a DIAS and other then the extra pin in the RR it would look the same and work the same as either the DIAS or RR.

That makes me think that if I ever have one of my lowers marked auto that I could also have them etch off the finish on both sides in little circles where the pin should be. Only thing is that might seem like a poser move, kind of like a fake silencer that I would never want. Anyone seen that done before?

 

[guns4fun]

Oh no, not the RLL, RDIAS, RR debate again.

To the OP, in your price range 9-11k, you are going to need to be looking at a RR clone or RLL. You will not find a factory colt m16 in that price range. Nor will you find a RDIAS. I guess you could get lucky but i doubt it.

I would not spend 7.5-8k on a RLL. I know quarterbore loves his but (for me) the biggest reason a RLL is a waste is because you can not shoot .22 in it. I also feel if you wanted a dedicated .22 FA by spending the money 9k+ for a norrell pack, you could have bought a cheaper m16 clone and been able to shoot multi cal uppers--not just a 10/22.

So again, in your price range you are looking at a colt sp1, sendra, oly etc.

Good luck. I had an oppertunity to trade my vector uzi and 3k for a sendra m16. I chose to keep the uzi and try to buy a RR m16 later this year. I figured i'd miss the uzi too much if i made the trade.

 

[GunNut105]

+1 for the RLL. Like Quarterbore, I have multiple guns set up to run select-fire with the link installed. Every one is plug and play. I had M60Joe mill all my carriers so they are all identical and paddle thickness is not an issue. I use the same paddle with every gun.
The only problem I see is the 22lr issue. I really wanted a 22 in FA. If you are looking to buy only one MG and really want 22 capabilities, then the RLL is out for now.
I, however, also have an AC556 and have a ciener kit for it. It runs like a buzzsaw and fills my need for cheap 22 shooting.

With the KNS protector in place, i don't feel any anxiety about breakage. It seems to take all the stress off the link.

In the end, even though my 16 won't shoot 22lr, i still think the versatility of having so many other set-ups makes it an excellent choice.

 

[infoseeker456]

I am curious, what are peoples sense as to 1) what Colt converted AR 15's go for these days 2) don't know the number, but he Colts that came FA from factory, but are not roll marked M16 (thought is was a three digit model number like 686 or something) 3) Group Industries stainless receiver.

I am thinking about a RR in March-ish timeframe.

I always love these threads. I know people pretty much make the same points, but good all the same.

Thanks for the price guidance.

 

[amphibian]

1) Don't know, I'd just say check on subguns and sturm for that
2) 614 is the most common one. I have one. Mechanically identical to roll marked M16 just roll marked 614. I've read some say they were export and some say they were for the Air Force.
3) I personally placed the Group receiver higher on my preference list than a Colt mainly because if there is a problem, there are a whole lot more people that can skillfully weld Stainless than aluminum.

 

[davep32618]

Oh no, not the RLL, RDIAS, RR debate again.

...

So again, in your price range you are looking at a colt sp1, sendra, oly etc.

QUOTE]

All of these ideas have helped my though process, even the "purist" ones.
So in my "price range, can anyone elaborate on the various models stated above?

Thanks,

Dave

 

[infoseeker456]

Dave:
To your original question that you started out with above, I had a similar discussion last week. Attached.
http://www.uzitalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32910

I have an Uzi and love it, but I prefer the versatility of the M16 or AR15 conversion. Here lies my problem, my Uzi is a bolt gun, which I have no problems with, no regrets and a potential buyer, who would easily give me what I have into it.

That said, I could probably go to $9-11k, BUT I am intrigued by solutions that cost less SWD LL for one. I know the pros and cons, so what I need are good financial reasons for spending extra money on a RR. I think MGs are over priced, so I always want something that does what I need it to do for the least amount of money. This is in the beginning stages, but this group in general is awesome, so I would really appreciate some opinions. Yes, I see similar posts come up all the time, but now it is MY money, so I want your opinions directed toward me.

Thanks,

Dave