Got a package from South Africa today (Another rifle project begins)

[lcastillo]

Pam,

Interesting bolt you have there. Did you get it from SA? I have never seen a proof mark stamp on the bolt like that before? Would you be kind enough and take a close up of this stamp and any other stamps it has?

Another thing that is interesting is that it has the letter "N" or "Z" depending on which way it is stamped on the bolt stem. Are there any numbers on the opposite of the bolt stem? I have great interest to see this. Thanks Lou

 

[mrf2]

I agree with Lou, the proof mark is not normal, but not necessarily wrong. Another posability is that is one of the bolts that were modified by the SADF to add the "spring". The armorers manual addresses this and marking the bolt with the rifle's serial number on the bolt stem to indicate the work was done.

Does it have the rubber bushing spring?

 

[Pamwe Chete]

I agree with Lou, the proof mark is not normal, but not necessarily wrong. Another posability is that is one of the bolts that were modified by the SADF to add the "spring". The armorers manual addresses this and marking the bolt with the rifle's serial number on the bolt stem to indicate the work was done.

Does it have the rubber bushing spring?

This was a stripped bolt that came from Mr Folgers.
On the left hand side of the bolt there is a number
012
Under that is a sideways N

Also on the long part of the bolt it looks like AIL was scratched into it.

 

[mrf2]

If it came from Mr Folgers then it's legit. What was odd to me was the sidewise "N". I've had a few R series bolts that didn't have that mark (also the three batch codes I've seen were all in the 40s). A new mark for the library.

 

[lcastillo]

I agree with Mrf2. I still am curious to know if the 012 numbers are vertically or horizontally stamped on the stem of the bolt? can we get a picture of the end of the bolt where the firing pin goes in to see if it was modified for a spring? Thanks

 

[Mr Folgers]

The bolt is SA and I believe they are from older R4 guns instead of surplus replacement parts.
I have another that is quite similar with the "N" proof mark and vertical numbers. Oval-P proof is present.

I've got two stripped SA bolts left for sale if someone needs one. They are in pretty good shape but the finish isn't as intact as Pamwe's.

 

[mrf2]

I think Mr Folgers brings up a valid point, that there is going to be a lot of parts variation in the South African rifles because there was IMI and developing local production. Based on recent pictures there are still IMI made R4 rifles (wood handguards, metal stocks, and scope cuts) in service. A lot of the South African parts that have made it to the US in the past three years are from demilled rifles and stocks of spares and tended to be later model parts. Since that is all we have seen that is all we know, ARMSCOR/Vektor/Denel are not exactly looking to share production data with any of us. The interesting parts are the unique IMI made and first generation SA made parts, but they are super hard to find. I suspect like most companies that use licensing agreements Vektor/LIW had to buy Israeli small parts as part of the production contract (pretty standard, FN does the same thing, I think 15% of the small parts have to come from FN for a fixed number of year) so the real situation is far less clear than we would like to believe.

 

[lcastillo]

so you are saying these bolts might be from the first 1000 or so R4's that where built in Isreal or that these bolts are stamped after being modified to accept the spring for the firing pin? And also to note Pam says they etched "AIE" on the bolt stem lightning cut. Thats a new one to me also. Pretty cool to spot something different even though we may never know what it means.

 

[lcastillo]

I might add that I was doing a little reasearch and it appears that apperantly a "N" is the chosen stamp that armourers use around the world after modifications have been performed on a barrel or bolt. So it does tie in with spring modification on the R4 bolts.

 

[mrf2]

Lou- of note we have no idea how many rifles South Africa bought from IMI, I think a few thousand is a safe bet, but neither IMI (or IWI) or LIW publish export data but we do know that over 100,000 rifles were made.

I don't think the "N" refers to the bolt mod. In Kalashnikov, the arms and the man by Ezell there is a small but we'll researched section on the Galil and it's SA relative. The marking instructions for rifles modified with the new bolt, stocks, and other unique upgrades were electropenciling the rifle's serial number followed by an "A1" on the stem of the bolt, barrel, topcover and side of receiver. No idea about the N, maybe a different type of subcontractor or batch code? Is that code on IMI made bolts?

 

[lcastillo]

Lou- of note we have no idea how many rifles South Africa bought from IMI, I think a few thousand is a safe bet, but neither IMI (or IWI) or LIW publish export data but we do know that over 100,000 rifles were made.

I don't think the "N" refers to the bolt mod. In Kalashnikov, the arms and the man by Ezell there is a small but we'll researched section on the Galil and it's SA relative. The marking instructions for rifles modified with the new bolt, stocks, and other unique upgrades were electropenciling the rifle's serial number followed by an "A1" on the stem of the bolt, barrel, topcover and side of receiver. No idea about the N, maybe a different type of subcontractor or batch code? Is that code on IMI made bolts?

Mrf2, thanks for the info. This is the first "N" stamping I have seen in IMI or SA bolts. I have not been at SA rifles as long as you have, but I admit this bolt is pretty interesting. Especially not being a springbok or oval "P" proof stamp that we are used to seeing in SA rifles.

 

[mrf2]

Lou- it is hard to see in the pic but I think it has a oval P proof stamp? It's a little worn or hard to see due to lighting?

 

[Mr Folgers]

Lou- it is hard to see in the pic but I think it has a oval P proof stamp? It's a little worn or hard to see due to lighting?

It is oval-P stamped

 

[Machinegun Messiah]

Are there any structural differences between these early SA bolts and the late era SA bolts? Such as relief cuts or lack there of? Etc. . . . or is it only markings?

 

[mrf2]

All South African bolts should have the "P in oval" proof mark (like FAL bolts, barrels, bolt carriers and receivers used by the SADF) to indicate they were proof tested. They should have this if they were made in Israel or South Africa. The first bolts were standard IMI bolts and had free floating firing pins. Eventually the bolts were modified with an additional hole drilled in the tail to accommodate the rubber "spring" for the firing pin and new bolts were made with this mod. I've seen a few SA made bolts and most look just like IMI bolts except the markings and the cut for the "spring" really only fits the rubber bushing and nothing else. Lou did a good job of documenting this in the SA rifle thread. As far as I can tell there is no other difference in machining. Mr Folgers may have seen something I haven't?

New (post 2000) made bolts may be different? South Africa no longer has the license to produce the Galil and we have started to see some parts (like gas tubes, receivers) are different.

 

[lcastillo]

Yeah I agree with you. I had asked for some close ups of the bolt

 

[Pamwe Chete]

 

[lcastillo]

pamwe thanks man for the pictures. I still can't tell if the proof mark has a blemish or if it's worn? Although overall the bolt looks in great condition. Can you tell us what it looks like to you Pamwe?

 

[Pamwe Chete]

pamwe thanks man for the pictures. I still can't tell if the proof mark has a blemish or if it's worn? Although overall the bolt looks in great condition. Can you tell us what it looks like to you Pamwe?

Proof mark is worn.

 

[MGMAN45]

LOL